[NewMusic] Immolation

Wed Nov 8 17:38:28 PST 2006

Again, I think being shocked that someone on "this
list" might consider it a  spiritual act" is the wrong
way of looking at it. 

Not that there  is any comparison to the act we are
speaking of, but I am continuously "shocked" at how
conservative supposedly "progressive" musicians are in
their taste in film or visual arts or even most forms
of music.

The people on this list hold a wide variety of
beliefs. 

For instance, I for one couldn't consider what he did
"spiritual" merely by the fact of being a pretty damn
militant atheist, but that doesn't necessarily alter
the conversation of the value, worth, effect (or lacks
thereof) of the act itself.

lance

--- Chris Broderick <elsuperfantastico at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> OK, OK, I misspoke.  Suicide has been a part of many
> spiritual traditions, I am aware of that.  But so
> has
> mutilation, murder, genocide, bombing abortion
> clinics, etc.  What I should have said is that I am
> shocked that someone on this list would consider
> suicide to be a spiritual act.  Or for that matter,
> a
> work of "performance art".  I only wonder if any
> would
> agree with such sentiments if they had witnessed
> this
> self-immolation first hand.
> 
> -Chris
> 
> --- Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > > That's the first time that I've heard of a
> > suicidal act being 
> > > something "spiritual".
> > 
> > Really? Suicide being a  "spiritual" act has a
> > pretty long tradition. 
> > How about Masada? There were the Buddhist monks
> who
> > immolated 
> > themselves during the Vietnam war. Most suicide
> > bombers seem to 
> > consider it a spiritual act, and I think so did
> the
> > guys who plowed 
> > those planes into the WTC, etc. Also the cool-aid
> > folks, or the purple 
> > sneaker types.  Or read just about anything by
> Yukio
> > Mishima.
> > 
> > Seems there's pretty hard evidence some that many
> > who commit suicidal 
> > (and murderous) are NOT afflicted with clinical
> > depression.
> > 
> > Whether one agrees that it is spiritual, noble, or
> > not. . . well that's 
> > different.
> > 
> > On Nov 8, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Chris Broderick wrote:
> > 
> > > Regardless of agreeing with his sentiments, I
> > couldn't agree less with 
> > > his actions.  Assumedly he's left some loved one
> > behind after this 
> > > act, and if not, then that is likely the larger
> > reason behind his act 
> > > than any political protest.  But If he has, then
> > ask that person 
> > > whether his behavior is "spiritual", or
> > "admirable", or for that 
> > > matter, worthwhile.
> > >
> > > Suffering is indeed a part of life, and suicide
> is
> > often an attempt to 
> > > short circuit that suffering.  The statement
> that
> > this person made 
> > > above all is this: I can't take it anymore.  Any
> > political statements 
> > > are secondary, to say the least.  I'm sorry if I
> > can't lionize 
> > > self-immolation, but having been through chronic
> > depression myself, 
> > > and having lost a couple of friends to suicide,
> I
> > have a hard time 
> > > finding anything noble about it.
> > >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net>
> > > To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2006 3:44:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Immolation
> > >
> > >
> > > Sarah,
> > >
> > > OK, perhaps admire isn't the right word - mostly
> > because the act can be
> > > viewed as one of a spiritual nature. It's an act
> > of disintegration - an
> > > act that will not allow the subject to remain
> > indifferent to 
> > > atrocities.
> > > It's an extreme version of the opposite of
> > "indifferent", I agree - and
> > > that is what is so astonishing about it.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, the sage knows that suffering
> > is part of life and
> > > realizes to wish it otherwise is foolish - the
> act
> > of wishing something
> > > is different than it is - is what an enlightened
> > being resists - or
> > > refuses to consider.
> > >
> > > It is also possible to think of this individual
> as
> > someone that felt he
> > > needed to embrace the suffering and annihilation
> > that is rampant in 
> > > Iraq
> > > by exterminating himself.
> > >
> > > So perhaps astonished (how could it be
> otherwise?)
> > is really the right
> > > word. But still, after all is said and done -
> when
> > is the last time
> > > anyone astonished you with their spirituality? -
> > (if I am perceiving 
> > > the
> > > act correctly - it's "correct" for me anyway) -
> > you kind of have to
> > > admire the guy...
> > >
> > > PG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Phillip Greenlief
> > > c/o Evander Music
> > > PO Box 22158 Oakland, CA
> > > 94623-9991
> > > www.evandermusic.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu
> > > [mailto:newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Sarah - 21 Grand
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:26 PM
> > > To: Banewmus List
> > > Subject: [NewMusic] Immolation
> > >
> > > Phillip wrote:
> > > Sad news, and yet I can't help but admire a guy
> > who would go so far to
> > > make a statement about the insanity of our
> > involvement in Iraq.
> > >
> > > - Well, admire isn't the word I would use - I
> > think as a political act
> > > it
> > > was a bit useless - though Rumsfeld did step
> down
> > today, but I don't
> > > think
> > > it was because dude set himself on fire.
> > >
> > > - Certainly it is impressive as an act of
> > "performance art" - tops 
> > > Chris
> > > Burden getting shot in the arm or nailed to the
> > Volkswagon. Darren and 
> > > I
> > > spent a bit of time at dinner last night
> > discussing the ethics and
> > > responsibility of his action.
> > >
> > > sl
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > >
> > 
> 
=== message truncated ===

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