From ingalls at mills.edu  Fri Jun  1 00:40:23 2007
From: ingalls at mills.edu (Matt J. Ingalls)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 00:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] [BA-NEWMUS:50] Re: 21 Grand Brass Band
In-Reply-To: <20070531.135443.3976.6.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20070531.135443.3976.6.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0706010037460.1632@myfiles.mills.edu>


> result, i have been able to force it to make income without an iota of
> artistic compromise. my challenge is not only to "make music" for it's

how much do you make ?

-m

From weaselw at juno.com  Fri Jun  1 00:45:33 2007
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 00:45:33 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] [BA-NEWMUS:50] Re: 21 Grand Brass Band
Message-ID: <20070601.004534.3976.25.weaselw@juno.com>

enough to pay my bills and survive without having to get "a real job".
not enough to live in a manner most people would find acceptible.

ww
 
On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 00:40:23 -0700 (PDT) "Matt J. Ingalls"
<ingalls at mills.edu> writes:
> 
> > result, i have been able to force it to make income without an 
> iota of
> > artistic compromise. my challenge is not only to "make music" for 
> it's
> 
> how much do you make ?
> 
> -m
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> 
 

From grobair at emusician.com  Fri Jun  1 10:06:51 2007
From: grobair at emusician.com (Robair, Gino)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:06:51 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] When the CD atrophies
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1180670401.3303.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <C285A03B.5A0B%grobair@emusician.com>

The CD will die? Shit, it's already dead folks...for the people who really
make a proper living off of CD sales. (The serious money is in licensing and
synchronization, afaict). The article is really about the multinationals and
pop-music world. I can't see the fact that WalMart stops carrying CDs
affecting our level of releases (i.e., those of us who are pissing about
pressing <1000 units), many of which are sold primarily at gigs or via
boutique outlets like North Country or Forced Exposure. Most labels give
away 5,000 of a new release. Come by and visit our free bin at work, and
I'll show ya.

Vinyl didn't die as predicted. And the noise community is still making,
selling, and giving away cassettes. I'll bet there's a gal somewhere who's
selling wire recordings of her improvisations. She'll probably sell more of
those than I'll sell of Yellowcake product at gigs (which, btw, is a ltd
edition of 280 units for those of you who want to compete for the smallest
REAL run of CDs....) :-)

But my listeners still buy CDs at gigs, once I get out of my home town.
(YMMV)

For my money, I've discovered the most interesting music and music makers
online via MySpace. Sure, most people profess to hate that butt-ugly-looking
service now, but I'm constantly floored by what I run across by artists in
places I didn't know existed. That and YouTube.

BTW, Damon, have you ever worked in screen printing? Imagine setting up an
automated system to do 100 prints. Then try to do 10 jobs like that in a
day, seven days a week. Setup/teardown/cleanup/repeat is a bitch. THAT's why
they do runs of 500 units or more per setup, and charge $1K per job no
matter what. If you can do it cheaper consistently, you'll make a killing in
this biz (at least until this Christmas, when the CD dies).



From grobair at emusician.com  Fri Jun  1 10:18:32 2007
From: grobair at emusician.com (Robair, Gino)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:18:32 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] NYT: Where's the other half of your music?
Message-ID: <C285A2F8.5A10%grobair@emusician.com>

More on downloading music...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/technology/31basics.html?ex=1181361600&en=
0436d84d1c70ff31&ei=5070&emc=eta1

Or 
http://tinyurl.com/2392ms


From tjohns at mills.edu  Fri Jun  1 11:42:35 2007
From: tjohns at mills.edu (Travis C. Johns)
Date: Fri,  1 Jun 2007 11:42:35 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Bass for Sale!
In-Reply-To: <C285A2F8.5A10%grobair@emusician.com>
References: <C285A2F8.5A10%grobair@emusician.com>
Message-ID: <1180723355.4660689b6b6ca@webmail.mills.edu>

Hi All,

So as the subject line indicates, I've got a bass for sale.

Specifics:

Late 1990's Ashbory Bass
18" Scale Neck, Silicone Rubber Strings, Active Electronics, the whole
bit. Nothing's wrong with it - I just don't play it enough to keep it
around and would rather see someone use it for something interesting as
opposed to having it collect dust around the domicile.

More info = here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashbory and here:
http://www.largesound.com/

Comes with a gig bag and one or two extra strings for auxiliary and/or
entertainment purposes.

Going price on this little number is $150 or so, preferably in currency,
but offers of groceries, land deeds, livestock, gold prospects, etc.
will also be considered. No gear trades this time - the great,
feathered bill gods unfortunately don't have a "used looper" payment
option as of yet - though I hear they've been working pretty hard at
making "souls" and "first borns" recognized as acceptable currency...

So yeah, if this sounds like a zesty investment or if you'd like to
skitter over and check it out, drop me a line and arrangements can be
made.

best,

t.


From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Fri Jun  1 11:40:11 2007
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:40:11 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] When the CD atrophies
In-Reply-To: <C285A03B.5A0B%grobair@emusician.com>
References: <C285A03B.5A0B%grobair@emusician.com>
Message-ID: <6485c9adeb62160b6ab8a1dda6ad372a@balancepointacoustics.com>

Well it is on them to figure it out, I am sure it can be done. Either 
they learn to do it for the right price or people will bypass the cd 
altogether and make some cdrs and sell it online.
10 jobs like that in a day is better than no jobs.

Damon

On Jun 1, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Robair, Gino wrote:

> BTW, Damon, have you ever worked in screen printing? Imagine setting 
> up an
> automated system to do 100 prints. Then try to do 10 jobs like that in 
> a
> day, seven days a week. Setup/teardown/cleanup/repeat is a bitch. 
> THAT's why
> they do runs of 500 units or more per setup, and charge $1K per job no
> matter what. If you can do it cheaper consistently, you'll make a 
> killing in
> this biz (at least until this Christmas, when the CD dies).


From grobair at emusician.com  Fri Jun  1 12:27:47 2007
From: grobair at emusician.com (Robair, Gino)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:27:47 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] NPR challenges online royalties
Message-ID: <C285C143.5A32%grobair@emusician.com>

FYI


From grobair at emusician.com  Fri Jun  1 12:28:08 2007
From: grobair at emusician.com (Robair, Gino)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:28:08 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Oops  NPR challenges online royalties
In-Reply-To: <C285C143.5A32%grobair@emusician.com>
Message-ID: <C285C158.5A36%grobair@emusician.com>

With the URL this time:
http://encore.celebrityaccess.com/index.php?encoreId=79&articleId=21806


On 6/1/07 12:27 PM, Robair, Gino scribbled:

> FYI


From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Fri Jun  1 12:46:52 2007
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:46:52 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <C285C158.5A36%grobair@emusician.com>
References: <C285C158.5A36%grobair@emusician.com>
Message-ID: <317fce70c19b88e392f7e5a6cbdda070@matthewgoodheart.com>

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/06/01/ 
MNGVOQ5TTP1.DTL


From slusser at pixar.com  Fri Jun  1 13:30:31 2007
From: slusser at pixar.com (David Slusser)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:30:31 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <317fce70c19b88e392f7e5a6cbdda070@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <C285C158.5A36%grobair@emusician.com>
	<317fce70c19b88e392f7e5a6cbdda070@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <011CC27B-1479-4BCA-8D95-80CB54C7F4D4@pixar.com>

On Jun 1, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Matthew Goodheart wrote:
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/06/01/
> MNGVOQ5TTP1.DTL

I hope you're referring to the black jazz article (I only linked to  
the home page).

Of course there's a Berkeley element, which is home base for this  
kind of protest.
The caption for the Muscarella photograph goes a long way to imply a  
lack of
"quality" in blacks from her perspective.  There are black performers  
in her festival,
it's just that none of them are scheduled to play on Anna Deleon's  
stage during the
festival.  Anna has a mixed race family, and is an old friend to many  
black musicians
from the protest era.  I was on the wrong end of some racial bias  
when I tried to sit
in at her club, so I know where she sits on white jazzers.   
Muscarella was probably
not aware that her festival dates at Anna's were all white, and she  
gave that pale
booking to the wrong club, in the form of Anna.  (I don't think other  
venues would
have noticed or cared - and if some of the black performers had been  
slated at
Anna's, it's doubtful that Anna would've noticed).  What Muscarella  
then said as an
academic was selectively quoted, adding fuel to the fire.

It's all a load of crap that we've been through before, with  
"identity politics" versus
the fact that it's mostly whites supporting and running "jazz".   
Tempest in a teacup,
but what a good-old-American tempest.

Poor Yoshi's not having any black (leaders) on it's anniversary CD  
was also
unfortunate, but really blown out of proportion.  It's a club  
released compilation,
and they could only put out recordings with the artist's permission.   
You'd think
they'd have (perpetual annual resident) McCoy Tyner there if they  
could get the
rights from his record company.  The article gave scant notice of  
this situation.

The bizarre thing to me was seeing it on the front page of the  
Chronicle this
morning....the FRONT PAGE...what the f%$k?  Great; inflame more  
polarization
and victimization instead of going after our criminal government.

From td at pixar.com  Fri Jun  1 13:40:50 2007
From: td at pixar.com (Tom Duff)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] McLaughlin
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0706011337100.11244@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>


Just a little 12 beat loop & Billy Cobham going nuts on the drums. I love
this stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujcYw2QTPzM&mode=related&search=

-- 
Tom Duff.  Expert-system profilers are adding all kinds of unwritten
rules to our lives.

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Fri Jun  1 13:59:31 2007
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:59:31 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  The Saga Continues. . .
Message-ID: <C285D6C3.1D359%21grand@21grand.org>

I guess there was nothing more to say about the whales ...

and speaking of the Chronicle, the Moe!kestra show gets alluded to in Leah
Garchick's column
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/05/31
/DDGNTQ415N1.DTL

sl

The sagacious Mr. Slusser wrote:
The bizarre thing to me was seeing it on the front page of the
Chronicle this
morning....the FRONT PAGE...what the f%$k?  Great; inflame more
polarization
and victimization instead of going after our criminal government.


From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 14:21:49 2007
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:21:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <317fce70c19b88e392f7e5a6cbdda070@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <C285C158.5A36%grobair@emusician.com>
	<317fce70c19b88e392f7e5a6cbdda070@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0706011421s6bfda360w23d80df5914e2c56@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, you beat me at posting this. What do people think?

http://tinyurl.com/yqcshe

I agree with David in that the article seemed aimed to be
inflammatory, pointing to organizers of the cd comp and festivals.
However, does it represent a trend?

One thing did catch my eye - they said that recent attendance at
Berkeley Jazz festivals was overwhelmingly white. How about the mix at
other jazz shows in the bay area. Is the article pointing out a
symptom of a larger trend where black music fans and young musicians
are moving away from jazz?

Matt

On 6/1/07, Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com> wrote:
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/06/01/
> MNGVOQ5TTP1.DTL
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From elsuperfantastico at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  1 14:22:52 2007
From: elsuperfantastico at yahoo.com (Chris Broderick)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:22:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
Message-ID: <581817.60092.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Tee hee!  Reminds me of one of the weirdest moments I've ever had on stage.  I was doing a show with Jake Rodriguez & Mike Guarino at some now defunct venue in the Mission, and when we finished our first piece the doors swung open and someone shouted, "Enjoy it while you can, because I'm calling the cops!"  We stumbled through the rest of our set, a bit stunned (at least I was), and then Nels Cline came on and played way, way, way louder than us.  The cops never arrived, so I guess the moral of that story is to do what you want and to hell with the consequences.

-Chris


----- Original Message ----
From: Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>
To: Banewmus List <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 1:59:31 PM
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .


I guess there was nothing more to say about the whales ...

and speaking of the Chronicle, the Moe!kestra show gets alluded to in Leah
Garchick's column
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/05/31
/DDGNTQ415N1.DTL

sl

The sagacious Mr. Slusser wrote:
The bizarre thing to me was seeing it on the front page of the
Chronicle this
morning....the FRONT PAGE...what the f%$k?  Great; inflame more
polarization
and victimization instead of going after our criminal government.

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


      ___________________________________________________________________________________
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html

From weaselw at juno.com  Fri Jun  1 14:26:14 2007
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:26:14 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
Message-ID: <20070601.142617.3976.39.weaselw@juno.com>

On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:21:49 -0700 "Matt Davignon"
<mattdavignon at gmail.com> writes:
> Ah, you beat me at posting this. What do people think?

uh, well, their comp cd looks incredibly fucking boring despite the skin
colors of the artists included.

ww

From polly.moller at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 14:32:57 2007
From: polly.moller at gmail.com (Polly Moller)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:32:57 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] 21 Grand on Google Maps Street View
Message-ID: <2eb068d40706011432w76cf3053sf047ada3d1c17117@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't looked for other venues yet, but there appears to be a
camera positioned right outside 21 Grand.

http://tinyurl.com/3coo7s

Click on "Street View" when you get to the map, and then click on the
person that appears on the map.

P.



-- 
-------------------------------------
http://www.pollymoller.com
-------------------------------------

From polly.moller at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 14:34:40 2007
From: polly.moller at gmail.com (Polly Moller)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:34:40 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] 21 Grand on Google Maps Street View
In-Reply-To: <2eb068d40706011432w76cf3053sf047ada3d1c17117@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2eb068d40706011432w76cf3053sf047ada3d1c17117@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2eb068d40706011434m6a5bbc09o1ac68951224f92f5@mail.gmail.com>

The tinyurl didn't work when I tried it again...
but if you enter 21 Grand's address, click on "Street View" when the map
appears.

On 6/1/07, Polly Moller <polly.moller at gmail.com> wrote:
> I haven't looked for other venues yet, but there appears to be a
> camera positioned right outside 21 Grand.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3coo7s
>
> Click on "Street View" when you get to the map, and then click on the
> person that appears on the map.
>
> P.
>
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------
> http://www.pollymoller.com
> -------------------------------------
>


-- 
-------------------------------------
http://www.pollymoller.com
-------------------------------------

From Henry.Kuntz at ceb.ucop.edu  Fri Jun  1 14:37:33 2007
From: Henry.Kuntz at ceb.ucop.edu (Henry Kuntz)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:37:33 -0700 
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
Message-ID: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D06@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>

It seems to me that the main audiences for any kind of "cutting edge" jazz
have been "overwhelmingly white" for years, at least since the 70s and
probably since the advent of "new thing" jazz. The last time I was in a club
to hear jazz with an overwhelmingly black audience was to hear the late
Arnett Cobb in a neighborhood bar and club in Houston, maybe 15 or so years
ago.  He was blowin' away, the people were into it. 

One thing did catch my eye - they said that recent attendance at Berkeley
Jazz festivals was overwhelmingly white. How about the mix at other jazz
shows in the bay area. Is the article pointing out a symptom of a larger
trend where black music fans and young musicians are moving away from jazz?

Matt



On 6/1/07, Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com> wrote:
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/06/01/
> MNGVOQ5TTP1.DTL
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From elsuperfantastico at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  1 14:48:49 2007
From: elsuperfantastico at yahoo.com (Chris Broderick)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:48:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] 21 Grand on Google Maps Street View
Message-ID: <681327.41153.qm@web50306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/30/google_maps_is_spyin.html

-Chris

----- Original Message ----
From: Polly Moller <polly.moller at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 2:34:40 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] 21 Grand on Google Maps Street View


The tinyurl didn't work when I tried it again...
but if you enter 21 Grand's address, click on "Street View" when the map
appears.

On 6/1/07, Polly Moller <polly.moller at gmail.com> wrote:
> I haven't looked for other venues yet, but there appears to be a
> camera positioned right outside 21 Grand.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3coo7s
>
> Click on "Street View" when you get to the map, and then click on the
> person that appears on the map.
>
> P.
>
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------
> http://www.pollymoller.com
> -------------------------------------
>


-- 
-------------------------------------
http://www.pollymoller.com
-------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network Research Panel today!   http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 



From weaselw at juno.com  Fri Jun  1 14:57:55 2007
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:57:55 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
Message-ID: <20070601.152031.3976.40.weaselw@juno.com>

> Is the article pointing out a symptom of a 
> larger trend where black music fans and young musicians are moving away

> from jazz?

this very well could be. 

ww

From Henry.Kuntz at ceb.ucop.edu  Fri Jun  1 15:34:32 2007
From: Henry.Kuntz at ceb.ucop.edu (Henry Kuntz)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:34:32 -0700 
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
Message-ID: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>

Following from my last post, I'll go ahead and open up the can of worms and
ask: what are the likely reasons that most jazz audiences are white while
most of the performers are black? I was also asking myself again recently -
what with articles from my old 
newsletter BELLS - now appearing online, what is the reason that most jazz
critics have been white? 
I can only come up with this, a tentative notion, that may or may not hold
up to scrutiny. But I think it may have to do with the fact that jazz,
growing directly out of the black experience, is in the first instance (for
blacks, those in the direct line of cultural succession) a primarily
experiential and participatory form of expression. It is meant to be heard
close up, with audience give and take, call and response. Whites, on the
other hand, learn to "appreciate" this expression, thus view it and hear it
more from the "outside," so are therefore more willing to hear it (as
"audience" rather than as call-and-response participators  -- like in that
club in Houston where I heard Arnett Cobb) and who are also more wanting to
explain and to come to grips with their experience through writing about it.
And, from this review of the book by Leo Smith that I reviewed many years
ago:
"Smith...poses the question of whether creative music (jazz) can even be
criticized at all; and he replies, 'no, creative music cannot be criticized.
It not does not require that form of journalism.' On the one hand, he notes
that - along with the listener - there are any number of environmental
factors (the temperature, elements of air, contours and shape of the room,
etc.) that effect the improviser in the act of creation. Secondly, he writes
that if a creative level of communication is reached between musician and
listener, then that is enough. 'It can go no further than you-inside-you. It
is not a music that allows one to use it and still refer to it. If someone
uses the music - for example, tries to write about how it has 'succeeded' or
'failed' or how it was 'not quite there' and how the audience 'reacted' to
it - they fail (lose) in just that slight moment to bring outside something
that is inside (for the inside: soul).'"
So....does any of the above make sense? Maybe partially? I'm not sure. I'm
writing off the top of my head and thinking about it
Henry

Leo Smith's book reviewed here:
http://www.m-etropolis.com/bells/bells-slleb/leo-smith-notes-8-pieces-source
-a-new-world-music-creative-music/

BELLS here
http://www.m-etropolis.com/bells/

 


From urbaniconoclastbabe at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  1 15:40:11 2007
From: urbaniconoclastbabe at yahoo.com (Karen C.)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:40:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <20070601.152031.3976.40.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <51929.73509.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Before y'all declare the demise of the African-American jazz audience, consider factoring in the class and neighborhood dynamics.  The Malcolm X JazzArts festival on International Blvd last week had an audience that was 90% African-American, at least when I was there. (Or are those folks -- Billy Harper etc,  http://www.eastsideartsalliance.com -- not "cutting-edge"?)

weasel walter <weaselw at juno.com> wrote: > Is the article pointing out a symptom of a 
> larger trend where black music fans and young musicians are moving away

> from jazz?

this very well could be. 

ww
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


       
---------------------------------
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. 

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 15:58:30 2007
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:58:30 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>
References: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0706011558g287ae31cwc7f10a9b76ec0604@mail.gmail.com>

Ok - so what does that lead to?

Is the argument that "cutting edge" jazz lends itself more to
"appreciative" audiences than "participatory" ones? Do the Berkeley
Jazz Fest and Yoshi's aim to be cutting edge as far as Jazz goes? (Not
a rhetorical question - I really don't know.)

Or are you saying that the music series/shows/events that are
frequently reviewed or featured in the Chronicle, by the nature of the
review/critical medium, appeal to one demographic of audience more
than another? As opposed by series that are promoted in other methods,
such as word-of-mouth or poster advertising?

Funny note, I was discussing this article with a co-worker, and he
said something along the lines of "Well, a lot of the people doing
great jazz recently are white. Like Kenny G for example." Dead
serious. My response was a series of 8 or so abstract staccato
syllables spread out over a period of 12 seconds.

Matt


On 6/1/07, Henry Kuntz <Henry.Kuntz at ceb.ucop.edu> wrote:
> Following from my last post, I'll go ahead and open up the can of worms and
> ask: what are the likely reasons that most jazz audiences are white while
> most of the performers are black? I was also asking myself again recently -
> what with articles from my old
> newsletter BELLS - now appearing online, what is the reason that most jazz
> critics have been white?
> I can only come up with this, a tentative notion, that may or may not hold
> up to scrutiny. But I think it may have to do with the fact that jazz,
> growing directly out of the black experience, is in the first instance (for
> blacks, those in the direct line of cultural succession) a primarily
> experiential and participatory form of expression. It is meant to be heard
> close up, with audience give and take, call and response. Whites, on the
> other hand, learn to "appreciate" this expression, thus view it and hear it
> more from the "outside," so are therefore more willing to hear it (as
> "audience" rather than as call-and-response participators  -- like in that
> club in Houston where I heard Arnett Cobb) and who are also more wanting to
> explain and to come to grips with their experience through writing about it.
> And, from this review of the book by Leo Smith that I reviewed many years
> ago:
> "Smith...poses the question of whether creative music (jazz) can even be
> criticized at all; and he replies, 'no, creative music cannot be criticized.
> It not does not require that form of journalism.' On the one hand, he notes
> that - along with the listener - there are any number of environmental
> factors (the temperature, elements of air, contours and shape of the room,
> etc.) that effect the improviser in the act of creation. Secondly, he writes
> that if a creative level of communication is reached between musician and
> listener, then that is enough. 'It can go no further than you-inside-you. It
> is not a music that allows one to use it and still refer to it. If someone
> uses the music - for example, tries to write about how it has 'succeeded' or
> 'failed' or how it was 'not quite there' and how the audience 'reacted' to
> it - they fail (lose) in just that slight moment to bring outside something
> that is inside (for the inside: soul).'"
> So....does any of the above make sense? Maybe partially? I'm not sure. I'm
> writing off the top of my head and thinking about it
> Henry
>
> Leo Smith's book reviewed here:
> http://www.m-etropolis.com/bells/bells-slleb/leo-smith-notes-8-pieces-source
> -a-new-world-music-creative-music/
>
> BELLS here
> http://www.m-etropolis.com/bells/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Fri Jun  1 16:06:56 2007
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:06:56 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <51929.73509.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <51929.73509.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1c0e563129c2d8826540e4f0e31322af@balancepointacoustics.com>

I played that festival several years ago in an Eddie Gale band that had 
Prince Lasha and E.W. Wainright (sp?), what you say is true.  There is 
certainly a Black audience here - they do tend to come out to see black 
players, though.
The black musicians in our scene are great improvisors and nice people, 
it's your loss if you don't try to play with them.

The other side of the coin is that there are not a lot of younger black 
musicians getting involved, so most of them are senior players who want 
either $$ or a really good gig, and that is fair.
I think compiling a list of black players interested and willing to be 
in that festival and on that compilation.

Damon


On Jun 1, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Karen C. wrote:

> Before y'all declare the demise of the African-American jazz audience, 
> consider factoring in the class and neighborhood dynamics.  The 
> Malcolm X JazzArts festival on International Blvd last week had an 
> audience that was 90% African-American, at least when I was there. (Or 
> are those folks -- Billy Harper etc,  
> http://www.eastsideartsalliance.com -- not "cutting-edge"?)
>
> weasel walter <weaselw at juno.com> wrote: > Is the article pointing out 
> a symptom of a
>> larger trend where black music fans and young musicians are moving 
>> away
>
>> from jazz?
>
> this very well could be.
>
> ww
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're 
> surfing.
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>


From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Fri Jun  1 16:09:17 2007
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:09:17 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <1c0e563129c2d8826540e4f0e31322af@balancepointacoustics.com>
References: <51929.73509.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1c0e563129c2d8826540e4f0e31322af@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <0b62ca6638e282331872a54d03df99d2@balancepointacoustics.com>


On Jun 1, 2007, at 4:06 PM, Damon Smith wrote:

> I think compiling a list of black players interested and willing to be
> in that festival and on that compilation....
..would have been more productive.



From Henry.Kuntz at ceb.ucop.edu  Fri Jun  1 16:06:45 2007
From: Henry.Kuntz at ceb.ucop.edu (Henry Kuntz)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:06:45 -0700 
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
Message-ID: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D08@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>

Matt, I think what I was trying to create was more like a working postulate
than an argument, i.e. open to hearing more and open to reviision. But I
think I should perhaps remove the "cutting edge" idea from it; or at least
set it aside for the moment. What I think is that the kind of venues that
regularly feature jazz (of any sort) are perhaps more like audience-view
type venues rather than looser, neighborhood environments. I only know that
as long as I've been hearing jazz for the last 30 or so years in all sorts
of places in the Bay Area, most of the time, the audiences were 80-90%
white. (Sometimes, like Cecil Taylor at the Keystone Korner in the early
70s, there wasn't much of anyone there of any color.) It's also interesting
that Archie Shepp many years ago, in recognizing the situation, changed his
whole approach to music, hoping to attract a wider black audience. He went
from playing some kind of African-inspired avant garde jazz to playing
neo-bebop. I'm not sure the stylistic change helped in that respect, though.

-----Original Message-----
From: newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu
[mailto:newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Davignon
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 3:59 PM
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .

Ok - so what does that lead to?

Is the argument that "cutting edge" jazz lends itself more to "appreciative"
audiences than "participatory" ones? Do the Berkeley Jazz Fest and Yoshi's
aim to be cutting edge as far as Jazz goes? (Not a rhetorical question - I
really don't know.)

Or are you saying that the music series/shows/events that are frequently
reviewed or featured in the Chronicle, by the nature of the review/critical
medium, appeal to one demographic of audience more than another? As opposed
by series that are promoted in other methods, such as word-of-mouth or
poster advertising?

Funny note, I was discussing this article with a co-worker, and he said
something along the lines of "Well, a lot of the people doing great jazz
recently are white. Like Kenny G for example." Dead serious. My response was
a series of 8 or so abstract staccato syllables spread out over a period of
12 seconds.

Matt


On 6/1/07, Henry Kuntz <Henry.Kuntz at ceb.ucop.edu> wrote:
> Following from my last post, I'll go ahead and open up the can of 
> worms and
> ask: what are the likely reasons that most jazz audiences are white 
> while most of the performers are black? I was also asking myself again 
> recently - what with articles from my old newsletter BELLS - now 
> appearing online, what is the reason that most jazz critics have been 
> white?
> I can only come up with this, a tentative notion, that may or may not 
> hold up to scrutiny. But I think it may have to do with the fact that 
> jazz, growing directly out of the black experience, is in the first 
> instance (for blacks, those in the direct line of cultural succession) 
> a primarily experiential and participatory form of expression. It is 
> meant to be heard close up, with audience give and take, call and 
> response. Whites, on the other hand, learn to "appreciate" this 
> expression, thus view it and hear it more from the "outside," so are 
> therefore more willing to hear it (as "audience" rather than as 
> call-and-response participators  -- like in that club in Houston where 
> I heard Arnett Cobb) and who are also more wanting to explain and to come
to grips with their experience through writing about it.
> And, from this review of the book by Leo Smith that I reviewed many 
> years
> ago:
> "Smith...poses the question of whether creative music (jazz) can even 
> be criticized at all; and he replies, 'no, creative music cannot be
criticized.
> It not does not require that form of journalism.' On the one hand, he 
> notes that - along with the listener - there are any number of 
> environmental factors (the temperature, elements of air, contours and 
> shape of the room,
> etc.) that effect the improviser in the act of creation. Secondly, he 
> writes that if a creative level of communication is reached between 
> musician and listener, then that is enough. 'It can go no further than 
> you-inside-you. It is not a music that allows one to use it and still 
> refer to it. If someone uses the music - for example, tries to write 
> about how it has 'succeeded' or 'failed' or how it was 'not quite 
> there' and how the audience 'reacted' to it - they fail (lose) in just 
> that slight moment to bring outside something that is inside (for the
inside: soul).'"
> So....does any of the above make sense? Maybe partially? I'm not sure. 
> I'm writing off the top of my head and thinking about it Henry
>
> Leo Smith's book reviewed here:
> http://www.m-etropolis.com/bells/bells-slleb/leo-smith-notes-8-pieces-
> source
> -a-new-world-music-creative-music/
>
> BELLS here
> http://www.m-etropolis.com/bells/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From bradysharp at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 22:27:14 2007
From: bradysharp at gmail.com (Brady Sharp)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 00:27:14 -0500
Subject: [NewMusic] 21 Grand on Google Maps Street View
In-Reply-To: <681327.41153.qm@web50306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <681327.41153.qm@web50306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a7177e350706012227m210f4bb4g1456b9ee45f4fff6@mail.gmail.com>

I was just playing with this last night.  Apparently they've mapped
out most of the streets of the bay area, Denver, Vegas, and NYC.

It's scary how you can just type something as vague as "Amoeba Music
Berkeley" and within a couple of clicks be looking at it's storefront!

Brady

On 6/1/07, Chris Broderick <elsuperfantastico at yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/30/google_maps_is_spyin.html
>
> -Chris
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Polly Moller <polly.moller at gmail.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 2:34:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] 21 Grand on Google Maps Street View
>
>
> The tinyurl didn't work when I tried it again...
> but if you enter 21 Grand's address, click on "Street View" when the map
> appears.
>
> On 6/1/07, Polly Moller <polly.moller at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I haven't looked for other venues yet, but there appears to be a
> > camera positioned right outside 21 Grand.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/3coo7s
> >
> > Click on "Street View" when you get to the map, and then click on the
> > person that appears on the map.
> >
> > P.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -------------------------------------
> > http://www.pollymoller.com
> > -------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------
> http://www.pollymoller.com
> -------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network Research Panel today!   http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Fri Jun  1 23:59:20 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 23:59:20 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <011CC27B-1479-4BCA-8D95-80CB54C7F4D4@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01c7a4e3$8c1caf10$4001a8c0@PG>

-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of David Slusser
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .

On Jun 1, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Matthew Goodheart wrote:
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/06/01/
> MNGVOQ5TTP1.DTL

I hope you're referring to the black jazz article (I only linked to  
the home page).

Of course there's a Berkeley element, which is home base for this  
kind of protest.

PG:

Fair enough (on the Berkeley angle), but I am SO tired of people whining
about not being represented. It's been a DIY game for years now - and if
you haven't figured that out and you're still sitting around waiting for
the phone to ring, you have no one to blame but yourself if you're not
working/playing.  This is mostly because I used to be one of those
people and then I figured it out - if I want to play, I need to do
something to make that happen beyond composing and practicing and
rehearsing and making recordings.

You don't like who's on the 2007 XWWVOMVBYWN Festival? Start your own!

It's so easy to play the race card. Howard Wiley is getting out there
and playing quite a bit these days. He didn't bother to mention that he
was a featured artist at the Zipper Festival and that The Jazz House
produced a CD for him. In contrast, take Marcus Shelby - I'm not a huge
fan of his music, but he's really worked hard and I admire him; he's
written a lot of grants, he gets his group out and they WORK. I didn't
notice him complaining. This is not to say that there are not race
issues in America. This is not to say that many African Americans are
disadvantaged economically and that keeps a lot of things out of
balance. This is not to say that the haves will always try to keep the
have-nots "in their place". We have enormous race issues in America, but
I'm not convinced the lineup at the Berkeley Jazz Festival is the heart
of those problems.

Like Slusser, I have been on the "not appropriate" list at Anna's Jazz
Island for years. The Lost Trio tried and tried to get a gig there -
many packages, many phone calls - forget it - she never called us back.
Should I run to the Chronicle and complain that Native American Jazz
artists are being discriminated against or should I put energy into
booking the group somewhere else and get on with it?  I don't hold a
grudge against Anna - it's her club. She should book whoever she wants
to book. It would be nice if she tried to represent a larger "cultural
fabric" that has emerged from "jazz", but again, it's her club. She's
going to book who she wants. More power to her.

I've known Susan over at the Jazz School for many years, pretty much
since I arrived in 1979 and I know that racism is not a part of her
agenda. She's worked with countless musicians from just about every
cultural background over the years and she's sacrificed her career as a
player in order to run the school. She has my respects - she's a good
musician and a kind human being: period. I always thought they wouldn't
be interested in us, but when Dan sent a Lost Trio CD she said that she
had wanted to book us for a long time and didn't know how to contact us.
She gave us a gig right away and attended our concert and was super kind
and supportive. If she would have said, "I don't think your group is
right for the school", I would have accepted that and went on my way and
looked for a gig somewhere else.

We all get to the point where we feel we're not getting represented.
It's easy - we spend countless hours and countless years honing our
craft. No one seems to care. 

That reminds me of something a professor said to me during my first year
of music study in college:

"Nobody listens, nobody cares".

He told us that if we could embrace that idea and get on with it we
might actually stand a chance surviving a life in the music "business".

That's probably the best advice anyone ever gave me.


From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  2 00:10:30 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 00:10:30 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <20070601.152031.3976.40.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c7a4e5$1b3e9220$4001a8c0@PG>

-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of weasel walter
Re: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .

Henry:
> Is the article pointing out a symptom of a 
> larger trend where black music fans and young musicians are moving
away

> from jazz?

Weasel:
this very well could be. 

PG:
Well, mainstream jazz has been institutionalized to the point where
pretty much everything sounds the same - and the vibe has lost a lot of
its luster as a result. Who wouldn't lose their patience with jazz? 

We also no longer have a real jazz club in the bay area (no, I DON'T
count Yoshi's - that's a Las Vegas entertainment room as far as I'm
concerned - they no longer have music on Mondays - they're going to
start booking a DJ on Monday nights...).

I've probably said this before, but Keystone was the last great "jazz
club" the bay area had to offer. It closed years ago. I haven't had a
good jazz club experience since. Sure, I saw Sun Ra and Blood Ulmer at
Mabuhay Gardens and the old Stone on Broadway. I'm not thinking of those
experiences as jazz club experiences. I'm talking about hearing Dexter
Gordon or Joanne Brackeen tearing the paint off the walls for six nights
straight in a room smaller than 21 Grand. That's where and how jazz made
the grade. It isn't happening anymore. You can't hear any of the great
artists in small clubs unless you go to NY or other towns on the east
coast or (sometimes) Los Angeles (wait a minute, maybe Catalina's is
closed now...I forget - if so, you can scratch LA off the list too).

Meanwhile jazz limps along and its listeners remain some of the most
uptight and rigid folks I know. I'm on another "jazz" discussion list
that represents a lot of the DJs and jazz critics in America - I never
comment on that list - it's so fucking conservative I just can't deal
with it. There's only so long you can wait for your friends to pull
their heads out of their asses...eventually you move on.


From dmichalak at sbcglobal.net  Sat Jun  2 08:42:45 2007
From: dmichalak at sbcglobal.net (dmichalak)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:42:45 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] A Drummer For The Doctor
References: <00ac01c7a4e3$8c1caf10$4001a8c0@PG>
Message-ID: <004201c7a52c$ab151c60$6601a8c0@MARIE>

Hello,
Dr. Bob is looking for a drummer to play some upcoming gigs. (7/15 and 7/25)

We are:
Bob Marsh - Cello, vocals
David Michalak - Lap Steel

A small kit with some odd percussion works nicely. It would involve
improvising as well as a couple of traditional jazz and rock steady
rhythms.

Here are a couple of reviews of our CD Dark Times:

http://startlingmoniker.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/dark-times/

http://www.gaz-eta.vivo.pl/gaz-eta/recenzje/gazeta.php?nr=54&id=s_13

Edgetone site:
http://www.edgetonerecords.com/catalog/4035.html

You can e-mail me off list at dmichalak at sbcglobal.net

Thanks,
David


From slusser at pixar.com  Sat Jun  2 09:47:13 2007
From: slusser at pixar.com (David Slusser)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:47:13 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Thought Crime
In-Reply-To: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>
References: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>
Message-ID: <6C83E8A8-6A83-4757-B5B4-4424F26E6B2B@pixar.com>

On Jun 1, 2007, at 3:34 PM, Henry Kuntz wrote:
> Following from my last post, I'll go ahead and open up the can of  
> worms and

The saga is on the front page of the Chronicle again this morning.  A  
cowering
Yoshi's pulls its all white CD, and will go to the expense of  
securing the rights
to recordings more representative of ....?....its bookings?....the  
critics...? the
complainers...?  I was glad to have Orin Keepnews brought into the  
discussion.
He basically said it was just a dumb mistake and a terribly small  
deal.  Most
non-record companies that produce a small promotional batch of CDs  
try to
do so as cheaply as possible, and you can see just how that happened  
at Yoshi's.
An upshot of this is that Yoshi's is concerned enough about their  
reputation to
spend money to make a better impression in the market.  This may be  
good news
for jazz fans, for that's an indication of someone in for the long  
haul.  If the CD
ends up including ersatz commercial tracks, that's also an indicator.

At the end of the article, it also indicates that Muscarella only has  
half the
festival booked at this point.  Give us a break!  Obviously the super  
efficient
white nerds got their gigs lined up early, and set off the alarms.   
Again, what
this is doing on the front page of the Chronicle has me mystified.   
Are they
trying to get more black people to pick up the paper?  I'm glad PG  
pointed
out that (vocal critic) saxophonist Howard Wiley has not lacked in  
major public
appearances lately.  (I actually like his playing and concepts.)

Whatever the Chronicle's motives, we have issues of race and culture  
on the
table again (and let's not leave out class).  Does jazz belong or is  
exclusive
to one race (if you believe in the myth of race)?  People confuse  
race and
culture, but if the overwhelming majority of music I heard in my  
formative
years was jazz, R&B and blues, how is that not inherent in my culture?
(Jazz started as a MIXTURE of cultures, and has had all kinds of  
participants
from its earliest days.)  Can music be intellectual property?  How  
can you keep
your brain from absorbing it? Am I committing a THOUGHT CRIME when I
spontaneously break into something jazzy in my head or on stage because
of my race?  That's as reactionary as the NeoCons policing your bedroom.

From tim at perkis.com  Sat Jun  2 12:39:04 2007
From: tim at perkis.com (Tim Perkis)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:39:04 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Thought Crime
In-Reply-To: <6C83E8A8-6A83-4757-B5B4-4424F26E6B2B@pixar.com>
References: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>
	<6C83E8A8-6A83-4757-B5B4-4424F26E6B2B@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <4661C758.4060109@perkis.com>

The whole topic of racial politics and jazz is a disturbing and 
depressing one.

It's just too far out of the racist American worldview to see jazz as 
the multicultural/multiracial  product it is, in which black artists 
have provided the leadership. Where's the political constituency that 
would support that view of it? It's actually one of the few successes in 
US race relations, a real composite cultural product.

But for some reason, since it's unacceptable on some deep level  to 
accept black leadership of something that involves all the races, the 
whole subject is fraught with contradictions and evasions.

Of course now that much of the current activity called jazz is really 
some kind of museum-piece nostalgia trip, it's not that surprising that 
the racial make-up of the current practitioners and fans doesn't match 
the racial balance among the innovators.

T


David Slusser wrote:
> On Jun 1, 2007, at 3:34 PM, Henry Kuntz wrote:
>   
>> Following from my last post, I'll go ahead and open up the can of  
>> worms and
>>     
>
> The saga is on the front page of the Chronicle again this morning.  A  
> cowering
> Yoshi's pulls its all white CD, and will go to the expense of  
> securing the rights
> to recordings more representative of ....?....its bookings?....the  
> critics...? the
> complainers...?  I was glad to have Orin Keepnews brought into the  
> discussion.
> He basically said it was just a dumb mistake and a terribly small  
> deal.  Most
> non-record companies that produce a small promotional batch of CDs  
> try to
> do so as cheaply as possible, and you can see just how that happened  
> at Yoshi's.
> An upshot of this is that Yoshi's is concerned enough about their  
> reputation to
> spend money to make a better impression in the market.  This may be  
> good news
> for jazz fans, for that's an indication of someone in for the long  
> haul.  If the CD
> ends up including ersatz commercial tracks, that's also an indicator.
>
> At the end of the article, it also indicates that Muscarella only has  
> half the
> festival booked at this point.  Give us a break!  Obviously the super  
> efficient
> white nerds got their gigs lined up early, and set off the alarms.   
> Again, what
> this is doing on the front page of the Chronicle has me mystified.   
> Are they
> trying to get more black people to pick up the paper?  I'm glad PG  
> pointed
> out that (vocal critic) saxophonist Howard Wiley has not lacked in  
> major public
> appearances lately.  (I actually like his playing and concepts.)
>
> Whatever the Chronicle's motives, we have issues of race and culture  
> on the
> table again (and let's not leave out class).  Does jazz belong or is  
> exclusive
> to one race (if you believe in the myth of race)?  People confuse  
> race and
> culture, but if the overwhelming majority of music I heard in my  
> formative
> years was jazz, R&B and blues, how is that not inherent in my culture?
> (Jazz started as a MIXTURE of cultures, and has had all kinds of  
> participants
> from its earliest days.)  Can music be intellectual property?  How  
> can you keep
> your brain from absorbing it? Am I committing a THOUGHT CRIME when I
> spontaneously break into something jazzy in my head or on stage because
> of my race?  That's as reactionary as the NeoCons policing your bedroom.
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>   

From michaelz at zoka.com  Sat Jun  2 13:50:12 2007
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 13:50:12 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>
References: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>
Message-ID: <p060204b1c28787122766@[192.168.0.5]>

On 6/1/07, Henry Kuntz wrote:

>I can only come up with this, a tentative notion, that may or may not hold
>up to scrutiny. But I think it may have to do with the fact that jazz,
>growing directly out of the black experience, is in the first instance (for
>blacks, those in the direct line of cultural succession) a primarily
>experiential and participatory form of expression. It is meant to be heard
>close up, with audience give and take, call and response. Whites, on the
>other hand, learn to "appreciate" this expression, thus view it and hear it
>more from the "outside," so are therefore more willing to hear it (as
>"audience" rather than as call-and-response participators  -- like in that
>club in Houston where I heard Arnett Cobb)

This reminds me of some recent shows at Yoshi's (Branford Marsalis, 
Don Byron), where a black guy in the back of the audience made some 
enthusiastic exclamations during the music, immediately followed by 
some white folks chuckling and few others shushing him.

MZ


--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From michaelz at zoka.com  Sat Jun  2 13:59:59 2007
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 13:59:59 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <011CC27B-1479-4BCA-8D95-80CB54C7F4D4@pixar.com>
References: <C285C158.5A36%grobair@emusician.com>
	<317fce70c19b88e392f7e5a6cbdda070@matthewgoodheart.com>
	<011CC27B-1479-4BCA-8D95-80CB54C7F4D4@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <p060204b3c28788a2856c@[192.168.0.5]>

On 6/1/07, David Slusser wrote:

>What Muscarella then said as an academic was selectively quoted, 
>adding fuel to the fire.

 From the SF Chron article:

>Word spread quickly as people voiced outrage via e-mail over a 
>problem many said had been simmering for a long time. Jazz 
>professionals met to plan a response. Club owners and musicians went 
>on Doug Edwards' "Music of the World" show on KPFA-FM on May 19. A 
>week later, Susan Muscarella, who books the jazz festival and runs 
>Berkeley's Jazzschool, appeared on the same show to respond.

I happened to hear the second half of her appearance on KPFA last 
Saturday. The host and phone callers really put her on the hot seat 
(strongly questioning the apparent shortage of "people of color" 
among performers and students at The Jazzschool in general), but I 
think she responded fairly well under the circumstances. You can 
listen for yourself here:

<http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=20430>

The original "panel discussion" on May 19 is archived here:

<http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=20314>

MZ









--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From michaelz at zoka.com  Sat Jun  2 14:03:49 2007
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:03:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Moe!, the son Liberace never had?
Message-ID: <p060204b0c28784457ec8@[192.168.0.5]>

>Episode No. 37 (Oct. 9, 1967)
>"Art For Monkee's Sake"

>Legendary pianist Liberace makes a "smashing" cameo appearance here!

<http://monkeestv.tripod.com/BatMonkee/art_2.jpg>


<http://monkeestv3.tripod.com/season2/art4.html>


MZ



From michaelz at zoka.com  Sat Jun  2 14:35:54 2007
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:35:54 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <00b501c7a4e5$1b3e9220$4001a8c0@PG>
References: <00b501c7a4e5$1b3e9220$4001a8c0@PG>
Message-ID: <p060204b4c2878f5d1ad9@[192.168.0.5]>

On 6/2/07, Phillip Greenlief wrote:

>We also no longer have a real jazz club in the bay area (no, I DON'T
>count Yoshi's - that's a Las Vegas entertainment room as far as I'm
>concerned - they no longer have music on Mondays - they're going to
>start booking a DJ on Monday nights...).

This news really surprised me, so I took another look at the June 
calender. It included this note:

>MONDAY NIGHT DANCE NIGHT AT YOSHI'S!
>Beginning in July, every Monday night will be Dance Night! Starting 
>at 8pm we will clear the dance floor and bring in a live band to 
>play your favorite Latin or world dance music. For those of you that 
>need a little refresher course, there will be a dance instructor on 
>hand for the first hour to get you in the groove. Please let us know 
>if you have a favorite band that you would like to dance to and and 
>we will do our best to get them here. Email us your requests at 
>replies at yoshis.com.

Yes, that sounds pretty commercial, but it's a far cry from a DJ 
night (and Yoshi's is a commercial establishment, after all). And it 
shouldn't even affect Ashkenaz, which is dark on Monday nights.

>  You can't hear any of the great
>artists in small clubs unless you go to NY or other towns on the east
>coast

I don't know about jazz clubs in the rest of the country, but I've 
said it before and I'll say it again -- the NYC jazz clubs today (at 
least the well-known ones) make Yoshi's seem like a music paradise. 
The NYC clubs have shorter sets, steeper drink minimums, worse sound, 
and higher prices.

MZ





--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  2 14:41:23 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:41:23 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Thought Crime
In-Reply-To: <4661C758.4060109@perkis.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7a55e$c4dff930$4001a8c0@PG>

Nice post by Mssrs Slusser and Perkis.

I wanted to comment on these two posts:

Perkis:
It's just too far out of the racist American worldview to see jazz as
the multicultural/multiracial product it is, in which black artists have
provided the leadership. Where's the political constituency that would
support that view of it? It's actually one of the few successes in US
race relations, a real composite cultural product.

PG:
The idea that culture is an important aspect of community and even
national identity is an important one, and yes, the "leaders" are
hesitant to place a black face at the helm of said leadership. For
decades (starting in the 1930's) it was the black musicians (starting
with Coleman Hawkins and Sidney Bechet) that went to Europe as "jazz
ambassadors". They brought American culture to Europe and other places
and we have all seen the amazing things that have come in the wake of
that sharing of culture. It's important to acknowledge that - very
important.

I believe it's just as important today to see improvised music as the
descendant of that act of sharing a culture. Yes: today we have many
people of many cultures coming together to share in the act of creating
culture through improvised music. That's a beautiful thing in the face
of our "competitors": multi-national corporations that serve up
pre-packaged crap that doesn't feed the body/mind/spirit in any
meaningful way. Their work is to milk society of its coffers, no matter
how small (as low as the cost of a can of Coke) and to give back very
little. Improvisers ask for little (well, they might ask for a lot but
we tend to get a little) and offer something that allows us to
communicate in an emerging language that is unique and constantly
changing.

Perkis:
Of course now that much of the current activity called jazz is really
some kind of museum-piece nostalgia trip, it's not that surprising that
the racial make-up of the current practitioners and fans doesn't match
the racial balance among the innovators.

PG:
This is what I alluded to in my post last night - the music isn't really
vital in the way that it was when it reigned in the bop era or the free
music era of the 1960's. Now it's nearly a subscriber-only audience. The
spontaneity has been bled from nearly every corner of jazz.

I've asked many of my African American friends (musicians and
non-musicians) why they think young black musicians are steering away
from "jazz", or are not better represented on the "scene". Many of those
friends (a good deal of them non-musicians, for what it's worth) feel
that the youngsters know there isn't money waiting for them there, and
they're not so willing to embrace the music and culture of their
grandparents (fair enough!). You can see this view represented in
popular films. A recent quote from "Freedom Writers" (not a bad film -
it actually has a lot of stuff in it that I've faced in the classroom
and when confronting Byzantine administrations)...

The quote: "I don't see anyone that looks like me (black) with anything
in their pockets unless they're dribbling a ball or rappin' a lyric".
This sentiment, expressed in a film that is representing a certain
moment in history (Los Angeles during the Rodney King trials - circa
1991) may be a bit dated and na?ve. Surely lots of African Americans
have joined the middle class since the civil rights movement. But to a
youngster, however, it's easy to see the world in these kinds of black
and white terms. Even though the sentiment rings a bit false today, you
can certainly see where it's coming from in terms of a moment in time
and the word of a generation that produced NWA and Public Enemy.


Slusser:
The saga is on the front page of the Chronicle again this morning.  A
cowering Yoshi's pulls its all white CD, and will go to the expense of
securing the rights
to recordings more representative of ....?....its bookings?....the
critics...? the
 complainers...?

I was glad to have Orin Keepnews brought into the discussion. He
basically said it was just a dumb mistake and a terribly small deal.

PG:
We (improvisers) gave up on Yoshi's some time ago in terms of
representing us. I'm impressed, in some small way that "public opinion"
swayed their thinking. On the other hand, I'm of a similar mind with
Keepnews: it's kind of stupid for a lot of reasons (financial and
otherwise...you're never going to please EVERYONE when you make a
compilation like that). 

The truth is: those folks over at Yoshi's are fucking clueless.

Slusser:
An upshot of this is that Yoshi's is concerned enough about their
reputation to spend money to make a better impression in the market.
This may be good news for jazz fans, for that's an indication of someone
in for the long haul.  

PG:
Well, "long haul" can be interpreted here with some irony. It's
interesting that at the same time, Yoshi's is planning on closing its
Jack London Square location and heading to SF (Fillmore District). They
originally said they wanted to keep the Oakland location open while
opening another venue in SF. When that was the plan they were willing to
reveal, they said that their audience at Jack London Square didn't
include a lot of SF listeners, and that by opening a venue in SF they
could tap into a new listener's pool. They were confident that the "old
Yoshi's" (more irony, right?) would continue to serve audiences from the
east bay and beyond.

Slusser:
At the end of the article, it also indicates that Muscarella only has
half the festival booked at this point.  

PG:
I'm almost certain (without checking) that this information was included
in the first article as well. So yeah, they jumped on complaining
quicker than they jumped on trying to get a gig...maybe...

Slusser:
Again, what this is doing on the front page of the Chronicle has me
mystified.   
Are they trying to get more black people to pick up the paper?  

PG:
They're desperate - they'd have to be considering how often they call me
to become a subscriber.

Slusser:
I'm glad PG pointed out that (vocal critic) saxophonist Howard Wiley has
not lacked in major public appearances lately.  (I actually like his
playing and concepts.)

PG:
He's a good musician and a good tenor player! I have nothing against his
musicianship, nor do I really care if he sounds off.  I was just making
a point...the guy works quite a bit for someone who's playing the role
of the neglected.

Slusser:
People confuse race and culture, but if the overwhelming majority of
music I heard in my formative years was jazz, R&B and blues, how is that
not inherent in my culture?

PG:
I've made this point before on the list, but it seems terribly apropos
here. When I was young the AM radio (the most popular radio at the time
- you could hear it everywhere - at friend's houses, at the corner
store, the gas station, the pet shop, pretty much everywhere you went)
played music from many different cultural avenues. 

In the space of an hour, you could hear Jimi Hendrix, Smokey Robinson,
Cream, Beach Boys, Platters, Eric Burdon and the Animals, Chuck Berry,
Hugh Masekela, Aretha, Martha and the Vandellas, (the entire tidal wave
of motor city girl groups), Simon & Garfunkel, Richie Valens, Mamas &
Pappas, Fats Domino, the Seeds, etc. etc. etc.  

Yes, I was influenced by that (how is that not my culture - indeed!) -
not only the bands themselves, but the mix - the variety of sounds and
feelings that came through the radio grille. And because I was exposed
to black culture at an early age in this way (through music and by
hanging out with my neighbors), it was impossible not to have respect
for the folks who were getting razed by the national guard over in Watts
(less than 10 miles from where I lived). Those images of fire-hoses
spraying people in the street, countless houses and small businesses
burning, and tanks rolling down Jefferson or Crenshaw Streets remain
burned in my memory.

So it was impossible not to put the simplest of equations together:
these folks that were getting killed and having their houses burned to
the ground by the police were living breathing human beings that sang
songs about the same stuff that the white boys and girls were singing
about (love and hope, and of course: heart-ache). To an impressionable
kid, this was the beginning of seeing the deep pockets of lies that the
media and politicians and the armed forces concoct for the sake of
keeping a race of beautiful people on their knees.

Radio today is as segregated as the south was in the 1950's. Yes, you
can dial in lots of stations and find a mix of things. But stations
today are "specialized", which is a lie we are told in order to ensure
segregation.

Slusser:
(Jazz started as a MIXTURE of cultures, and has had all kinds of
participants
from its earliest days.)  Can music be intellectual property?  How can
you keep your brain from absorbing it? Am I committing a THOUGHT CRIME
when I spontaneously break into something jazzy in my head or on stage
because of my race?  That's as reactionary as the NeoCons policing your
bedroom.

PG:
Indeed. Who wants to think about sources all the time. It's a smoke
screen that gets hoisted so we can ignore the "message" any particular
music may have to offer. If the music doesn?t have a message - fair
enough - it still keeps us self-conscious, and that action is always
good for keeping us fearful and separate. Despite the intention or
meaning of any kind of music (which is wholly irrelevant for some of
us), it also keeps us from truly experiencing the music (or expressing
it), which is the worst outcome of all.


From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  2 14:45:42 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:45:42 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <p060204b1c28787122766@[192.168.0.5]>
Message-ID: <000d01c7a55f$5ef41880$4001a8c0@PG>

-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Michael Zelner
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .

On 6/1/07, Henry Kuntz wrote:

......It is meant to be heard
>close up, with audience give and take, call and response. Whites, on
the
>other hand, learn to "appreciate" this expression, thus view it and
hear it
>more from the "outside," so are therefore more willing to hear it (as
>"audience" rather than as call-and-response participators  -- like in
that
>club in Houston where I heard Arnett Cobb)
 
Zellner:
This reminds me of some recent shows at Yoshi's (Branford Marsalis, 
Don Byron), where a black guy in the back of the audience made some 
enthusiastic exclamations during the music, immediately followed by 
some white folks chuckling and few others shushing him.

PG:
Yeah, the last thing you want is for someone to feel something when you
play music...moved to the point of making sounds...that is dangerous.


From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  2 14:47:16 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:47:16 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Moe!, the son Liberace never had?
In-Reply-To: <p060204b0c28784457ec8@[192.168.0.5]>
Message-ID: <000e01c7a55f$96e6c210$4001a8c0@PG>

Hilarious!

Phillip Greenlief
c/o Evander Music
PO Box 22158 Oakland, CA
94623-9991
www.evandermusic.com

-----Original Message-----
From: newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu
[mailto:newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Zelner
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 2:04 PM
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
Subject: [NewMusic] Moe!, the son Liberace never had?

>Episode No. 37 (Oct. 9, 1967)
>"Art For Monkee's Sake"

>Legendary pianist Liberace makes a "smashing" cameo appearance here!

<http://monkeestv.tripod.com/BatMonkee/art_2.jpg>


<http://monkeestv3.tripod.com/season2/art4.html>


MZ


_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  2 14:48:38 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:48:38 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] New director at KZSU
In-Reply-To: <p060204b3c28788a2856c@[192.168.0.5]>
Message-ID: <000f01c7a55f$c814a1e0$4001a8c0@PG>

Hey bListers,

Here's a post about the changing of the guard over at KZSU.

Cheers,
PG


Craig Matsumoto, longtime jazz director at KZSU-FM, has decided to step 
down in order to spend more time with his family. Effective immediately,

Forrest Bryant is assuming Craig's duties as KZSU's jazz director.  Lisa

Dornell will replace Forrest as world music director.

Forrest has been a DJ at KZSU since 1999, and he has been the station's 
world music director since 2000. As a freelance writer, he contributes
to 
Jazz Times, Down Beat, All About Jazz and JazzWest.com. He is active in 
the Jazz Journalists Association and currently sits on the JJA's Board
of 
Directors. We are excited to have Forrest heading up the jazz department

at KZSU.

KZSU 90.1 FM is a freeform, eclectic station broadcasting to the San 
Francisco Bay Area from the campus of Stanford University, with a 
volunteer staff made up of students and members of the local community.
We 
stream online through iTunes and our own website 
(http://kzsu.stanford.edu) and report weekly charts to CMJ.

Forrest is now receiving email at jazz at kzsu.stanford.edu, with office 
hours to be determined. KZSU's mailing address and business phone number

are:

KZSU 90.1 FM
PO Box 20510
Stanford, CA 94309

(650) 725-4868

Best regards,

KZSU Music Department

Phillip Greenlief
c/o Evander Music
PO Box 22158 Oakland, CA
94623-9991
www.evandermusic.com


From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  2 14:58:34 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:58:34 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .
In-Reply-To: <p060204b4c2878f5d1ad9@[192.168.0.5]>
Message-ID: <001001c7a561$2af3cce0$4001a8c0@PG>

-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Michael Zelner
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] The Saga Continues. . .

>MONDAY NIGHT DANCE NIGHT AT YOSHI'S!
>Beginning in July, every Monday night will be Dance Night! Starting 
>at 8pm we will clear the dance floor and bring in a live band to 
>play your favorite Latin or world dance music. For those of you that 
>need a little refresher course, there will be a dance instructor on 
>hand for the first hour to get you in the groove. Please let us know 
>if you have a favorite band that you would like to dance to and and 
>we will do our best to get them here. Email us your requests at 
>replies at yoshis.com.

PG:
Dance Night!
Now we're really flossin'!
 

MZ:
Yes, that sounds pretty commercial, but it's a far cry from a DJ 
night (and Yoshi's is a commercial establishment, after all). And it 
shouldn't even affect Ashkenaz, which is dark on Monday nights.

PG:
It has so little to do with running a jazz club, that I can't really
comment further. 

MZ:
I don't know about jazz clubs in the rest of the country, but I've 
said it before and I'll say it again -- the NYC jazz clubs today (at 
least the well-known ones) make Yoshi's seem like a music paradise. 
The NYC clubs have shorter sets, steeper drink minimums, worse sound, 
and higher prices.

PG:
Many of them are expensive (Blue Note, Vanguard, Sweet Basil's,
Bradley's), but it's a fairly small room and the vibe is (usually)
present and accounted for. There are other nice venues in NY as well. I
heard Etta James in a small room near Washington Square a few years ago
- it had the vibe. Yeah, I paid $18 bucks to get in, but I got to hear
Etta in a small room and the place was packed with folks that were
feeling it (I don't have to mention that the "diversity" level of the
audience was high so I won't...). There was no drink minimum. It was a
great night...a nice surprise that I just wandered into on the way home
from a nice session. A nice NYC experience/moment...

But yeah, I hear what you're saying for the most part. I've never been
appalled by the "sound" at any of those places. The costs...sure! You
can spend some money in NY without thinking of it.


From jzitt at metatronpress.com  Sun Jun  3 03:04:54 2007
From: jzitt at metatronpress.com (Joseph Zitt)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 03:04:54 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Thought Crime
In-Reply-To: <6C83E8A8-6A83-4757-B5B4-4424F26E6B2B@pixar.com>
References: <34EC3AC09ED2D24288CDD6BB1A348511066E2D07@exchange.ceb.ucop.edu>
	<6C83E8A8-6A83-4757-B5B4-4424F26E6B2B@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <46629246.2090204@metatronpress.com>

David Slusser wrote:

> Again, what
> this is doing on the front page of the Chronicle has me mystified. 

How coincidental is it that they chose to declare these supposed crises 
on the first day of Black Music Month?

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sun Jun  3 10:11:58 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:11:58 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Dying Industry...(sic)
In-Reply-To: <46629246.2090204@metatronpress.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7a602$4bf5bdd0$4001a8c0@PG>

Hey bListers,

It seems that "the dying record industry" (yeah, sure) is on the minds
of lots of folks these days. Here is a post I received from another list
- it starts with some commentary from Steven at WPVM (Vermont) who is
responding to a comment from Robert Beam, from Thirsty Ear Records...

The thoughts and views expressed in this missive are the sole
intellectual property of the commentators and are not views particularly
expressed by the distributor (me).

;)
PG

*******************

>>>The problem is that we've over-convenienced the industry, and made 
music much less of a difficult commodity to get. 
The lowering of demand 
for packaged cd sales is directly correlative to these simple factors: 
1) music today is lame and has been overly marginalized. people buy it 
now like they buy shoes. it's an extension of vanity, and has little to 
do with the appreciation of actual singing, playing, or compositional 
abilities. 

2) It's virtually free now. Why run out and buy something 
that I know another person already has that i can burn onto my own cd? 

3) people are less easily fooled. In the olden days, you'd buy a tape 
or record, and it would be a crap shoot. You really didn't know what 
exactly to expect from a record, and you'd have only to go on faith and 
hope that it's what you wanted ( of course there were fewer big selling 
acts, but they were constants, and as such, could be expected to come 
up with the same stuff they always did, until they decided it was time 
to sell out and make some dough, after achieving street credibility ie. 
van halen or red hot chili peppers, shadows of their former selves, 
watered down for profit. and of course, the young upstarts with a 
gimmick that won't last past their first use in a car commercial. A 
has-been these days only takes about 3 months to a year to make. it 
used to take ten years for an act to officially peter out. )

The essential problem is simply bad fruit. Say you were buying oranges. 
Imagine that there are hundreds of orange sellers trying to get the 
business. Now imagine that years have passed, and everyone copied 
everyone else's business model and growing techniques for how to make 
and sell an orange down to the point where everyone's oranges have 
become virtually identical. Eventually, experiments relating to 
different breeds and their marketability would occur, and those less 
desirable by the majority of customers would be forgotten, leaving only 
the most popular variety, even though the more peculiar strains of 
oranges might still have a small audience. To bad for them because the 
"niche" oranges just aren't cost effective enough to produce, given the 
price breaks. Those that were interested in that quality of oranges 
will just have to settle for what's there, or give up on oranges 
altogether.

Over time, it becomes less of a matter of the quality they can produce 
in their oranges, and more about what the perveyers of this fruit can 
do/leave undone to get away with cutting corners and putting out 
substandard oranges, all the while telling the public how great they 
still are, and employing every promotioal organization that their 
dwindling money can buy, making insulting and loud ads about "BRAND X 
ORANGES" to get the word out that this is the new hot orange for the 
summer. It's just the same orange that people were already sick of 
last summer, it just has a different sticker.

But people aren't stupid, and in this neo hippy/diy era, people are 
proud to not buy into ad campaigns of any nature. This, incidentally 
is why teen smoking has actually gone on the upswing. Too many ad 
campaigns against smoking. If it's on tv, it's fake, says john q 
adolescent.

If EVERY orange grower creates this same lack luster product, people 
will lose all their likes for oranges altogether, save for remembering 
the bygone days when they tasted good, and there was a variety of them. 
Eventually, these oranges would be given away, perhaps as a promo 
vehicle to sell grapes or something.

Now replace the oranges with music, and that's what's wrong with the 
industry.<<<


On May 31, 2007, at 6:15 PM, < knowfish at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> The problem is that we've over-convenienced the industry, and made 
> music much less of a difficult commodity to get. The lowering of 
> demand for packaged cd sales is directly correlative to these simple 
> factors: 1) music today is lame and has been overly marginalized. 
> people buy it now like they buy shoes. it's an extension of vanity, 
> and has little to do with the appreciation of actual singing, playing,

> or compositional abilities. 2) It's virtually free now. Why run out 
> and buy something that I know another person already has that i can 
> burn onto my own cd? 3) people are less easily fooled. In the olden 
> days, you'd buy a tape or record, and it would be a crap shoot. You 
> really didn't know what exactly to expect from a record, and you'd 
> have only to go on faith and hope that it's what you wanted ( of 
> course there were fewer big selling acts, but they were constants, and

> as such, could be expected to come up with the same stuff they always 
> did, until they decided it was time to sell out and make some dough, 
> after achieving street credibility ie. van halen or red hot chili 
> peppers, shadows of their former selves, watered down for profit. and 
> of course, the young upstarts with a gimmick that won't last past 
> their first use in a car commercial. a has been these days only takes 
> about 3 months to za year to make. it used to take ten for an act to 
> officially peter out. )
>
> The essential problem is simply bad fruit. Say you were buying 
> oranges. Imagine that there are hundreds of orange sellers trying to 
> get the business. Now imagine that years have passed, and everyone 
> copied everyone else's business model and growing techniques for how 
> to make and sell an orange down to the point where everyone's oranges 
> have become virtually identical. Eventually, experiments relating to 
> different breeds and their marketability would occur, and those less 
> desirable by the majority of customers would be forgotten, leaving 
> only the most popular variety, even though these peculiar strains of 
> oranges might have a small audience. They just aren't cost effective 
> enought to produce, given the price breaks.
>
> Over time, it becomes less of a matter of the quality they can produce

> in their oranges, and more about what the perveyers of this fruit can 
> do/leave undone to get away with cutting corners and putting out 
> substandard oranges, all the while telling the public how great they 
> still are,m and employing every promotioal organization that their 
> money can buy, making insulting and loud ads about "BRAND X ORANGES" 
> to get the word out that this is the new hot orange for the summer.
>
> but people aren't stupid, and in this neo hippy diy era, people are 
> proud to not buy into ad campaigns of any nature. This, incidentally 
> is why teen smoking has actually gone on the upswing. Too many ad 
> campaigns against smoking. If it's on tv, it's fake, says john q 
> adolescent.
>
> If EVERY orange grower creates this same lack luster product, people 
> will lose all their likes for oranges altogether, save for remembering

> the bygone days when they tasted good, and there was a variety of 
> them. Eventually, these oranges would be given away, perhaps as a 
> promo vehicle to sell grapes or something.
>
> Now replace the oranges with music, and that's what's wrong with the 
> industry.
Robert Beam
Promotions/Production Director
Thirsty Ear Recordings
22 Knight Street
Norwalk Ct.
USA
06851
rob at thirstyear.com
203.838.0099


Phillip Greenlief
c/o Evander Music
PO Box 22158 Oakland, CA
94623-9991
www.evandermusic.com



From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Sun Jun  3 10:16:07 2007
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:16:07 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
In-Reply-To: <000001c7a602$4bf5bdd0$4001a8c0@PG>
References: <000001c7a602$4bf5bdd0$4001a8c0@PG>
Message-ID: <f20bfc8fcb5764cbf6800cc51c27821b@balancepointacoustics.com>

Thristy ear's problem is they have released record upon record 
degrading great musicians, so people want to hear them maybe for a 
morbid fascination, like rubbernecking at a car wreck, but nobody wants 
to pay for it.
Seriously, they just have too much risk to spend even a meager download 
on emusic to hear it.

Damon

On Jun 3, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Phillip Greenlief wrote:

> Hey bListers,
>
> It seems that "the dying record industry" (yeah, sure) is on the minds
> of lots of folks these days. Here is a post I received from another 
> list
> - it starts with some commentary from Steven at WPVM (Vermont) who is
> responding to a comment from Robert Beam, from Thirsty Ear Records...
>
> The thoughts and views expressed in this missive are the sole
> intellectual property of the commentators and are not views 
> particularly
> expressed by the distributor (me).
>
> ;)
> PG
>
> *******************
>
>>>> The problem is that we've over-convenienced the industry, and made
> music much less of a difficult commodity to get.
> The lowering of demand
> for packaged cd sales is directly correlative to these simple factors:
> 1) music today is lame and has been overly marginalized. people buy it
> now like they buy shoes. it's an extension of vanity, and has little to
> do with the appreciation of actual singing, playing, or compositional
> abilities.
>
> 2) It's virtually free now. Why run out and buy something
> that I know another person already has that i can burn onto my own cd?
>
> 3) people are less easily fooled. In the olden days, you'd buy a tape
> or record, and it would be a crap shoot. You really didn't know what
> exactly to expect from a record, and you'd have only to go on faith and
> hope that it's what you wanted ( of course there were fewer big selling
> acts, but they were constants, and as such, could be expected to come
> up with the same stuff they always did, until they decided it was time
> to sell out and make some dough, after achieving street credibility ie.
> van halen or red hot chili peppers, shadows of their former selves,
> watered down for profit. and of course, the young upstarts with a
> gimmick that won't last past their first use in a car commercial. A
> has-been these days only takes about 3 months to a year to make. it
> used to take ten years for an act to officially peter out. )
>
> The essential problem is simply bad fruit. Say you were buying oranges.
> Imagine that there are hundreds of orange sellers trying to get the
> business. Now imagine that years have passed, and everyone copied
> everyone else's business model and growing techniques for how to make
> and sell an orange down to the point where everyone's oranges have
> become virtually identical. Eventually, experiments relating to
> different breeds and their marketability would occur, and those less
> desirable by the majority of customers would be forgotten, leaving only
> the most popular variety, even though the more peculiar strains of
> oranges might still have a small audience. To bad for them because the
> "niche" oranges just aren't cost effective enough to produce, given the
> price breaks. Those that were interested in that quality of oranges
> will just have to settle for what's there, or give up on oranges
> altogether.
>
> Over time, it becomes less of a matter of the quality they can produce
> in their oranges, and more about what the perveyers of this fruit can
> do/leave undone to get away with cutting corners and putting out
> substandard oranges, all the while telling the public how great they
> still are, and employing every promotioal organization that their
> dwindling money can buy, making insulting and loud ads about "BRAND X
> ORANGES" to get the word out that this is the new hot orange for the
> summer. It's just the same orange that people were already sick of
> last summer, it just has a different sticker.
>
> But people aren't stupid, and in this neo hippy/diy era, people are
> proud to not buy into ad campaigns of any nature. This, incidentally
> is why teen smoking has actually gone on the upswing. Too many ad
> campaigns against smoking. If it's on tv, it's fake, says john q
> adolescent.
>
> If EVERY orange grower creates this same lack luster product, people
> will lose all their likes for oranges altogether, save for remembering
> the bygone days when they tasted good, and there was a variety of them.
> Eventually, these oranges would be given away, perhaps as a promo
> vehicle to sell grapes or something.
>
> Now replace the oranges with music, and that's what's wrong with the
> industry.<<<
>
>
> On May 31, 2007, at 6:15 PM, < knowfish at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> The problem is that we've over-convenienced the industry, and made
>> music much less of a difficult commodity to get. The lowering of
>> demand for packaged cd sales is directly correlative to these simple
>> factors: 1) music today is lame and has been overly marginalized.
>> people buy it now like they buy shoes. it's an extension of vanity,
>> and has little to do with the appreciation of actual singing, playing,
>
>> or compositional abilities. 2) It's virtually free now. Why run out
>> and buy something that I know another person already has that i can
>> burn onto my own cd? 3) people are less easily fooled. In the olden
>> days, you'd buy a tape or record, and it would be a crap shoot. You
>> really didn't know what exactly to expect from a record, and you'd
>> have only to go on faith and hope that it's what you wanted ( of
>> course there were fewer big selling acts, but they were constants, and
>
>> as such, could be expected to come up with the same stuff they always
>> did, until they decided it was time to sell out and make some dough,
>> after achieving street credibility ie. van halen or red hot chili
>> peppers, shadows of their former selves, watered down for profit. and
>> of course, the young upstarts with a gimmick that won't last past
>> their first use in a car commercial. a has been these days only takes
>> about 3 months to za year to make. it used to take ten for an act to
>> officially peter out. )
>>
>> The essential problem is simply bad fruit. Say you were buying
>> oranges. Imagine that there are hundreds of orange sellers trying to
>> get the business. Now imagine that years have passed, and everyone
>> copied everyone else's business model and growing techniques for how
>> to make and sell an orange down to the point where everyone's oranges
>> have become virtually identical. Eventually, experiments relating to
>> different breeds and their marketability would occur, and those less
>> desirable by the majority of customers would be forgotten, leaving
>> only the most popular variety, even though these peculiar strains of
>> oranges might have a small audience. They just aren't cost effective
>> enought to produce, given the price breaks.
>>
>> Over time, it becomes less of a matter of the quality they can produce
>
>> in their oranges, and more about what the perveyers of this fruit can
>> do/leave undone to get away with cutting corners and putting out
>> substandard oranges, all the while telling the public how great they
>> still are,m and employing every promotioal organization that their
>> money can buy, making insulting and loud ads about "BRAND X ORANGES"
>> to get the word out that this is the new hot orange for the summer.
>>
>> but people aren't stupid, and in this neo hippy diy era, people are
>> proud to not buy into ad campaigns of any nature. This, incidentally
>> is why teen smoking has actually gone on the upswing. Too many ad
>> campaigns against smoking. If it's on tv, it's fake, says john q
>> adolescent.
>>
>> If EVERY orange grower creates this same lack luster product, people
>> will lose all their likes for oranges altogether, save for remembering
>
>> the bygone days when they tasted good, and there was a variety of
>> them. Eventually, these oranges would be given away, perhaps as a
>> promo vehicle to sell grapes or something.
>>
>> Now replace the oranges with music, and that's what's wrong with the
>> industry.
> Robert Beam
> Promotions/Production Director
> Thirsty Ear Recordings
> 22 Knight Street
> Norwalk Ct.
> USA
> 06851
> rob at thirstyear.com
> 203.838.0099
>
>
> Phillip Greenlief
> c/o Evander Music
> PO Box 22158 Oakland, CA
> 94623-9991
> www.evandermusic.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>


From aurorarising at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  3 21:49:12 2007
From: aurorarising at hotmail.com (~ Aurora ~)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:49:12 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] First Try: Videos
Message-ID: <BAY104-W9E2757D0B3F47A5D8DDA2DD210@phx.gbl>

 
Moe! 
Death of a Piano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSyagIh7DUk
 
Punk Bunny
@ 12 Galaxies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIu5XPV2TkU
 
Cellular Chaos
@Hemlock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSl4m7-CO88
 
Outside the Terminal
May 27th, 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TFecyN68iw
 
Excerpt: James Goode's Somniloquy
Mission Creek Festival
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY2Xc6SClcc
 
Excerpt: Moe!kestra 10th Anniversary
@The Lab
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgLEX7mrbKY Aurora Josephson 
http://www.aurorarising.com 

From magsatellite at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  3 22:21:17 2007
From: magsatellite at yahoo.com (J. Segel)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:21:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1180929602.1081.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <427939.70765.qm@web43143.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


> >>>The problem is that we've over-convenienced the industry, and made 
> music much less of a difficult commodity to get. 
> The lowering of demand 

...and increase of supply. that was the revolution of DIY (we won! yay. all our
socialist values end up marginalizing us in the modern capitalism!)*
biggest problems that i experience with the overabundance is the prospect of
wading through it all to find what's decent. i really hope kfjc is bringing me
the cream of the crop, i certainly am not trusting the djs on kalx and kusf as
much lately. but i'm talking about "rock" music here mostly. something that was
a staple of the industry (bands and that sort of thing.)
i'm wondering about several things in this situation. one is, how can we
deliver non-cd music to radio and will that work anyway...? are we basically
just emailing MDs now to say "listen to the mp3s on this url"?
are they set up to play music that way yet?
my intitial backlash response to the other major death of the cd article was to
start thinking about makign vinyl again.. perhaps purists will fetishize the cd
also. i think i'll try to press at least a couple hundred of whatever i can
still, if only for fetishists.

apropos of this, i was listening to wolfgang's vault the other day (i recently
discovered that doing graphic work for people allows one to actually listen to
music while working. honestly, i never had that experience as everything always
involved working with sound! crap. i'm giving up on that music making stuff)
and was listening to old shows from the fillmore east and west. one thing that
struck me was that rock musicians in their 20s or early 30s were pretty good
back in the late 60s. clapton was even good then. so, was it musical training
in schools? was it practice time? cuz, man, the bands now that are sent up and
over the peak of popularity to has-been land before the players are 30, they
really suck. most of the musicians are just plain not good. i've been playing
(rock) music all my life and i only feel like i've become a decent guitar
player when over 40. that fucking violin is gonna take a lot longer. the kind
of music we are trying to pull off in the creative/non-commercial/improv world
has the ability to hide technique in favor of creativity, but that ability
always shines when it's there. it's no wonder that the entertainment industry
that abhors age and aging has kept the more experimental and creative music out
of the ears of the public: the people that do it well are old(er). 


*and other revolutions we won: microbrews, good coffee, good bagels;
essentially college culture gone universal, along with the dorm room bands. the
result? killian's red, starbucks, noah's. etc.


MAGNETIC --- Jonathan Segel 
magsatellite-yahoo(.)com <---> jsegel-magneticmotorworks(.)com
http://www.MagneticMotorworks.com


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

From td at pixar.com  Sun Jun  3 23:27:22 2007
From: td at pixar.com (Tom Duff)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 23:27:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Skronkathon preliminary schedule
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0706032318550.30733@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>

I just sent the preliminary schedule for this year's Skronkathon to
everyone that sent a proposal.  Once, in a previous year, I mislaid a
proposal and had to scramble to adjust the schedule at the last minute.  
So here's a copy of the schedule.  If you're not on it, despite having
sent a proposal, send me a message right now and accept my apologies.
If you were procrastinating and now regret having waited too long,
send me something anyway, and we'll see what we can do.

The 2007 Transbay Skronkathon BBQ, at 21 Grand on July 15, 2007.

 1:00- 1:25  womans worth               Matthew Grothman and others
 1:30- 1:55  Scott Looney project           Scott Looney and others
 2:00- 2:25  Polly Moller & Company      w. Grant Gardner, Jim Carr
 2:30- 2:55  Cornelius Cardew Choir       community new music choir
 3:00- 3:25  John Ingle                              solo saxophone
 3:30- 3:55  Davignon/Brumit                     drum machine+drums
 4:00- 4:25  David Slusser project                  with drummer(?)
 4:30- 4:45  jay korber & mikey yeda duo               guitar+drums
 4:50- 5:10  Heule/Dryer duo          Jacob Felix Heule, Tony Dryer
 5:15- 6:00  Seething Brunswicks+guests           rockish, needs PA
 6:05- 6:25  SOPHISTICUFFS     loud crazy abrasive improvised music
 6:30- 6:55  Generally Midair     electro-acoustic chamber ensemble
 7:00- 7:25  Amar Chaudhary                            solo digital
 7:30- 7:55  RTD3                Ron Heglin, Tom Nunn, Doug Carroll
 8:00- 8:25  Dr. Bob             David Michalak, Bob Marsh, drummer
 8:30- 8:55  Mute Socialite         Karim, Mendoza, Moe!, Dunkleman
 9:00- 9:25  Phillip Greenlief/Jorrit Dijkstra        saxophone duo
 9:30- 9:55  Tim Thompson                   interactive video+music
10:00-10:30+ The Whassuptet  Robair, Ingalls, Shiurba, Perkis, Djll
                                     + maybe one Very Special Guest

and, out in the street, at their leisure, concurrent with the above:

             SL Morse            Sarah Lockhart, Suki O'Kane, morse
                           code drumming about death/absence of God

-- 
Tom Duff.  Killfile me, please!!!!

From gcremaschi at hotmail.com  Mon Jun  4 09:30:09 2007
From: gcremaschi at hotmail.com (George Cremaschi)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:30:09 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
In-Reply-To: <427939.70765.qm@web43143.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY101-F2211092B54A37B87247449C1210@phx.gbl>


Jonathan wrote:

>one thing that struck me was that rock musicians in their 20s or early 30s 
>were pretty good back in the late 60s. so, was it musical training in 
>schools? was it practice time?

Well for all of their excesses, mainstream rock musicians in those
days still aspired to have high standards - they looked to the
blues, jazz, soul, etc musicians of the time for inspiration.
They all talked about Coltrane or Mingus or Buddy Guy in interviews.

And practice time? How about those stories of bands renting giant
flats in the Haight or farmhouses in Marin for $50 a month?
If all you had to do was come up with 10 bucks every month,
that would sure leave a lot of time for practice, drugs and
hippie girls named Sunshine.

Where's the fucking time machine?

-George

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows 
Live Hotmail. 
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507


From weaselw at juno.com  Mon Jun  4 09:45:22 2007
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 09:45:22 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
Message-ID: <20070604.094523.520.0.weaselw@juno.com>

DEATH TO WEAK MUSICIANS!!! LET ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE!!!!

ww

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:30:09 -0700 "George Cremaschi"
<gcremaschi at hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> Jonathan wrote:
> 
> >one thing that struck me was that rock musicians in their 20s or 
> early 30s 
> >were pretty good back in the late 60s. so, was it musical training 
> in 
> >schools? was it practice time?
> 
> Well for all of their excesses, mainstream rock musicians in those
> days still aspired to have high standards - they looked to the
> blues, jazz, soul, etc musicians of the time for inspiration.
> They all talked about Coltrane or Mingus or Buddy Guy in 
> interviews.
> 
> And practice time? How about those stories of bands renting giant
> flats in the Haight or farmhouses in Marin for $50 a month?
> If all you had to do was come up with 10 bucks every month,
> that would sure leave a lot of time for practice, drugs and
> hippie girls named Sunshine.
> 
> Where's the fucking time machine?
> 
> -George
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning 
> Windows 
> Live Hotmail. 
>
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migra
tion_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
> 
> 

From weaselw at juno.com  Mon Jun  4 09:56:33 2007
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 09:56:33 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
Message-ID: <20070604.095634.520.1.weaselw@juno.com>

ha ha ha. i'm 35. my generation came up watching too much MTV. i feel
like many white kids in my generation got the impression that playing
music was a really easy, fun thing to do. all you have to do is be
magnificent and wham, you're a rock star. you make records, play concerts
and everybody goes nuts. i mean, after all, there's hundreds of groups on
tv and they're doing great! i want to be just like them!

oops.

my parents made either the mistake or good decision to tell me that i
could do whatever i want to with my life as long as i do it "all the
way". that's why in lieu of a "real job" i do things like scrape around
for rent, playing in as many bands, making as many recordings, hustling
as much as i do - all music related, all the time. i've had to diversify
the fuck out of my abilities in music just to survive. woe to those who
don't, because then you join the lottery - the lottery of maybe getting
some recognition or money. the odds get more and more shitty on cashing
in everyday. in music, popularity has more to do with social skills than
merit. the popularity of my own music projects seems directly
proportional to how much i go out to bars and drink with other "popular"
people, which is to say right now it's at a medium low point and i'm not
getting drunk very often. 

someone asked me why i make so many records if i believe the music market
is so utterly saturated. i told him that apparently i'm egotistical
enough to think my voice should be heard. then i took it down a notch and
said, well, honestly, i make records so i have something to listen to
that meets my aesthetic criteria. i went on to say that it happens to be
that my records generally fill a niche that is uncommonly filled, i.e. i
make relentlessly brutal free jazz records - i don't hear anybody making
those anymore. i would like to hear a record like that, therefore, i
suppose i have to make it. by extension, there must be others who want to
hear this really brutal free jazz record since there aren't a lot of
others being made. so, therein lies the demand: small but relevant. these
are my motivations. i am still very compelled to continue what i'm doing
in spite of the morass of mediocre bullshit that is contemporary music. 

ww

From sopranino at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jun  4 10:59:47 2007
From: sopranino at sbcglobal.net (Jon Raskin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 10:59:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Fw:  Dying Industry...(sic)
Message-ID: <437405.15139.qm@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Jon Raskin <sopranino at sbcglobal.net>
To: jsegel at magneticmotorworks.com
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2007 9:10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)


JS
"i'm wondering about several things in this situation. one is, how can we
deliver non-cd music to radio and will that work anyway...? are we basically
just emailing MDs now to say "listen to the mp3s on this url"?
are they set up to play music that way yet?"
 
JR
After reading the link that Gino sent the other day there is no technological barrier and the cost of hard drive space and transfer is quite low.  I wonder if this happening, at least inside the radio companies?  Why bother mailing the cd's to each station when you can load them on a server and each radio station can access them for download?  It becomes like software sales, a license for use and you don't need the media really.
 
JS
" listening to wolfgang's vault the other day "
JR
I think the real danger for us is the increased cost of royalty payments on the web that are based on per play and will drive out independent an small websites.  My understanding is that even if we give permission for a site to play my music they will still have to pay Soundexchange for each play.  Besides hijacking my rights by protecting my rights it is an accounting nightmare for a small organization.  What happens to wolfgangs vault or archive.org? Do they all move offshore like the gambling sites?
 
JS
"the prospect of wading through it all to find what's decent."
 
JR
It seems to me to be getting easier and cheaper to wade through the over abundance and certainly takes less time.  Once you hear something that you like the web is available to find out more about it and what is around it.  You find an interesting website for music and you can listen to samples to see what you like.  It lacks the human contact and community of going to record shops, searching the bins and talking to the staff about what is going on which was a lot of the fun of it.  Listening sessions are replaced with lists like this one.  The problem for me is time really and this relates to the quality of the musicians.  Time to practice, time to rehearse, time to listen and most importantly enough local gigs to really get the music going.  Getting gig for a week in club to play everynight for for 4 hours.  That is what gets your sound together.  One night stands don't really allow the kind of opening up of music the way an extended stay does.


 
----- Original Message ----
From: J. Segel <magsatellite at yahoo.com>
To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2007 10:21:17 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)


> >>>The problem is that we've over-convenienced the industry, and made 
> music much less of a difficult commodity to get. 
> The lowering of demand 

...and increase of supply. that was the revolution of DIY (we won! yay. all our
socialist values end up marginalizing us in the modern capitalism!)*
biggest problems that i experience with the overabundance is the prospect of
wading through it all to find what's decent. i really hope kfjc is bringing me
the cream of the crop, i certainly am not trusting the djs on kalx and kusf as
much lately. but i'm talking about "rock" music here mostly. something that was
a staple of the industry (bands and that sort of thing.)
i'm wondering about several things in this situation. one is, how can we
deliver non-cd music to radio and will that work anyway...? are we basically
just emailing MDs now to say "listen to the mp3s on this url"?
are they set up to play music that way yet?
my intitial backlash response to the other major death of the cd article was to
start thinking about makign vinyl again.. perhaps purists will fetishize the cd
also. i think i'll try to press at least a couple hundred of whatever i can
still, if only for fetishists.

apropos of this, i was listening to wolfgang's vault the other day (i recently
discovered that doing graphic work for people allows one to actually listen to
music while working. honestly, i never had that experience as everything always
involved working with sound! crap. i'm giving up on that music making stuff)
and was listening to old shows from the fillmore east and west. one thing that
struck me was that rock musicians in their 20s or early 30s were pretty good
back in the late 60s. clapton was even good then. so, was it musical training
in schools? was it practice time? cuz, man, the bands now that are sent up and
over the peak of popularity to has-been land before the players are 30, they
really suck. most of the musicians are just plain not good. i've been playing
(rock) music all my life and i only feel like i've become a decent guitar
player when over 40. that fucking violin is gonna take a lot longer. the kind
of music we are trying to pull off in the creative/non-commercial/improv world
has the ability to hide technique in favor of creativity, but that ability
always shines when it's there. it's no wonder that the entertainment industry
that abhors age and aging has kept the more experimental and creative music out
of the ears of the public: the people that do it well are old(er). 


*and other revolutions we won: microbrews, good coffee, good bagels;
essentially college culture gone universal, along with the dorm room bands. the
result? killian's red, starbucks, noah's. etc.


MAGNETIC --- Jonathan Segel 
magsatellite-yahoo(.)com <---> jsegel-magneticmotorworks(.)com
http://www.MagneticMotorworks.com



____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From cliffcaruthers at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 11:17:28 2007
From: cliffcaruthers at gmail.com (cliff caruthers)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:17:28 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
In-Reply-To: <20070604.095634.520.1.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20070604.095634.520.1.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <e18daac20706041117i2574346drac59c58566053ad6@mail.gmail.com>

were it the 20's we'd be teletyping each other that the mere existence
of recordings is ruining the music i'm sure.  now that anyone can put
out a cd, or post a myspace page we get to ruin the music a different
way.  would we really go back??

likely the recording as it exists now will be a historical blip 100
years from now.  it's obvious at any rate that the medium is in flux
and we haven't quite figured out what that means yet.  given that
state of affairs i can't think of a better reason to put out a record
(read: webpage with links) than weasel's:

> i make relentlessly brutal free jazz records - i don't hear anybody making
> those anymore. i would like to hear a record like that, therefore, i
> suppose i have to make it.

-cliff

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Mon Jun  4 11:52:35 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:52:35 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  make a call for arts funding today
In-Reply-To: <20070604.095634.520.1.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <00b901c7a6d9$849b41f0$4001a8c0@PG>


Dear bListers,

Here is a call to call or email Mark Leno at the State Capital building
in Sacramento to urge him to allocate money for arts funding. Come on
now, don't just complain that there's no money out there - do something
about it.

PG



Friends & Colleagues:
I urge you all to ACT TODAY!  and spread the message widely:

A bill is currently making its way through the Legislature, that would
create a stable funding stream for state support of the arts and
programs to guarantee access for all. The bill, AB 1365, has already
made it through two committees, and with strategic support, stands a
real chance of becoming law. 
Four years ago, the Legislature slashed support for the arts by 97%,
eliminating programs that opened doors to the arts for people across the
state. Today, California spends less than any other state on support for
the arts--just six cents per person, compared to the national average of
one dollar per capita.

AB 1365 would change that. The bill proposes to shift 20% of the sales
tax collected on works of art to the California Arts Council. This isn't
a new tax but merely a designation for the spending of dollars the state
is already collecting. 

The initial analysis by the Board of Equalization (BOE) estimates that
the 4.75% rate of sales and use tax on works of art amounts to $166
million per year. AB 1365 would transfer 20% of this amount, or $33.2
million from the state's General Fund to the California Arts Council.
Further, the BOE writes, "This bill would not be problematic to
administer," with the first transfer of funds occurring 6 months
following the effective date of the bill.

The bill was authored by Assemblywoman Betty Karnette of Long Beach and
is currently pending on the Suspense calendar in the Assembly
Appropriations Committee (chaired by SF Assemblyman Mark Leno). The
Suspense calendar will be taken up early next week . Assemblyman Leno (a
great arts supporter) and Speaker Nunez of Los Angeles will be critical
to moving the bill off Suspense.

If the bill moves off Suspense it then goes to a vote on the assembly
floor prior to June 8th. At that time we expect to push for statewide
communications to Assembly members through meetings, letters, and
emails. If we can get the bill through the Assembly then it will move to
the Senate.

What we need TODAY is for all of us to contact Mark Leno and his office,
expressing your support for the bill and urging him, as the Committee
Chair, to move the bill forward. 

Calling Mr. Leno's's office in Sacramento to register your support is a
good idea. The number is: Phone (916) 319-2013. 

Emailing works too. Mr. Leno's email address is:
mailto:assemblymember.leno at assembly.ca.gov 

Faxing Mr. Leno a letter, is best of all, since he can literally carry
these letters with him into the chamber. Fax number: (916) 319-2113 . 

Sample language for your email or faxed letter is posted below. 

SAMPLE LETTER OR EMAIL


June 1, 2007

The Honorable Mark Leno
Member of the California State Legislature
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814 Location: Assembly Appropriations Committee 

Re: Assembly Bill 1365: 
California Arts Council Funding 
Position: SUPPORT

Dear Assembly Member Leno:

I am writing to thank you for your long support of the arts in this
state and to urge you, as Chair of the Appropriations Committee, to move
AB 1365 off the Suspense calendar, and I respectfully urge you to
support this bill in every way possible.

As you know, passage of AB 1365 would require that 20% of state sales
and use tax revenues derived from the sales of art dealers, art
auctioneers, and certain other business entities be deposited in the
State Treasury for allocation to the California Art Council. 

The California Board of Equalization (BOE) estimates that the 4.75% rate
of sales and use tax on works of art amounts to $166 million per year.
AB 1365 would transfer 20% of this amount, or $32 million from the
state's General Fund to the California Arts Council. Further, the BOE
writes, "This bill would not be problematic to administer," with the
first transfer of funds occurring 6 months following the effective date
of the bill.

This is not a new tax; it is merely a designation for the spending of
dollars the state is already collecting.

California is now in its fourth year of severe spending cuts to programs
that used to help ensure access to the arts to all the people of our
state. Indeed, California continues spend mere pennies per person on
access to the arts, while the national median is one dollar. 

AB 1365 would provide a stable funding stream to help ensure ALL the
people of California have access to the rich cultural resources of our
state. The arts are critical to fostering creativity, giving voice to
diverse communities, building tolerance and empathy, attracting
tourists, and enriching the imaginations and lives of all Californians.

The arts are vital to our culture of innovation we are so very proud of
as Californians. With AB 1365 supporting new, sustained funding for the
California Arts Council and its programs, the arts can continue to be a
significant contributor to California's economic recovery through
tourism, jobs, social services and educational outreach. AB 1365
proposes a sound investment for California.

Thank you for your faithful commitment to a better, more equitable
California. 

Sincerely,

 

At last, adequate support for the arts - at almost one dollar per
person, the national median - might just be within reach, helping us
ensure that in California we can guarantee -- Art for All! Not for Some!
ACT NOW!



-- 
Slim Russell
1200 Lakeshore Avenue, #18A
Oakland CA 94606
tel: 510.452.9231 / mobile: 510.326.7392
SlimPMZ at gmail.com




From michaelz at zoka.com  Mon Jun  4 11:54:57 2007
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:54:57 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Fw:  Dying Industry...(sic)
In-Reply-To: <437405.15139.qm@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <437405.15139.qm@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0602040ac28a0a6bd52d@[192.168.0.5]>

On 6/4/07, Jon Raskin wrote:

>JS
>" listening to wolfgang's vault the other day "
>JR
>I think the real danger for us is the increased cost of royalty 
>payments on the web that are based on per play and will drive out 
>independent an small websites.  My understanding is that even if we 
>give permission for a site to play my music they will still have to 
>pay Soundexchange for each play.  Besides hijacking my rights by 
>protecting my rights it is an accounting nightmare for a small 
>organization.  What happens to wolfgangs vault or archive.org? Do 
>they all move offshore like the gambling sites?

I think archive.org is exempt from this  (at least for now). It hosts 
only artists who have given explicit permission, in effect waiving 
royalties for these downloads. From the Live Music Archive FAQ:

>I'm an artist who would like to be included in the Archive, what do 
>I need to do?
>
>We'd love to have you! Just write to us at etree at archive dot org 
>in English giving some kind of permission for us to archive your 
>shows for public download and noncommercial, royalty-free 
>circulation. It does not need to be a formally worded declaration, 
>and can come from anyone you feel has the "say-so." We just need to 
>be clear on how you feel about the project. We will put relevant 
>quotes onto a new "collection" page (examples) for your 
>performances, along with a link to your official website.

<http://www.archive.org/about/faqs.php#115>

The recent SoundExchange "compromise" on the Internet radio royalty 
issue allows "small Webasters" and non-commercial sites to continue 
paying at the old rates. (This is far from a done deal, though.)

<http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070522-soundexchange-offers-olive-branch-to-small-webcasters-over-royalties.html>


Wolfgang's Vault <http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/> is a different story:

>The Concert Vault is fully licensed by BMI, ASCAP and SESAC, and we 
>pay these performance rights organizations every time you listen to 
>a concert. The license fees make their way back to the performers 
>that made the music. Download revenues are also shared with 
>performers and publishers as appropriate. One of our top priorities 
>will always be to make sure that the artists are compensated for 
>their performances.

There are pending lawsuits (brought by several aging rockers and two 
of the major labels) against the owner of Wolfgang's Vault, though:

<http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2006/12/19/rock-icons-sue-website-operator-over-streaming-concerts-memorabilia-sales>

<http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2007/03/05/bill-graham-concert-archive-site-countersues-record-labels>

MZ












--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Mon Jun  4 12:02:09 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:02:09 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
In-Reply-To: <20070604.094523.520.0.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01c7a6da$dafdb590$4001a8c0@PG>

Cremaschi scribbled:

> And practice time? How about those stories of bands renting giant
> flats in the Haight or farmhouses in Marin for $50 a month?
> If all you had to do was come up with 10 bucks every month,
> that would sure leave a lot of time for practice, drugs and
> hippie girls named Sunshine.
> 
> Where's the fucking time machine?

Weasel proclaimed:

DEATH TO WEAK MUSICIANS!!! LET ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE!!!!

ww

PG:
That's some "brutal" Darwinism, but I can dig it.

I don't know; I wouldn't mind going back to paying $62 a month for rent
and having lots of time to practice. Her name wasn't Sunshine, it was
Gina...all we did was practice (she played alto and piano), ate good
food (grew lots of it in the garden), smoked pot and read to each other
in bed. I could use a few weeks of that, if nothing more...

; )


From letucepry at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  4 12:03:32 2007
From: letucepry at yahoo.com (Ron Lettuce)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:03:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] First Try: Videos (RIAA?)
Message-ID: <208611.72349.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

So, does this mean that the RIAA will be collecting money from Aurora on MOE!'s behalf????


lettuce

----- Original Message ----
From: ~ Aurora ~ <aurorarising at hotmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music List <ba-newmus at eartha.mills.edu>; "brutalsfx at yahoogroups.com" <brutalsfx at yahoogroups.com>; "chi-improv at yahoogroups.com" <chi-improv at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2007 9:49:12 PM
Subject: [NewMusic] First Try: Videos


Moe! 
Death of a Piano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSyagIh7DUk

Punk Bunny
@ 12 Galaxies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIu5XPV2TkU

Cellular Chaos
@Hemlock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSl4m7-CO88

Outside the Terminal
May 27th, 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TFecyN68iw

Excerpt: James Goode's Somniloquy
Mission Creek Festival
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY2Xc6SClcc

Excerpt: Moe!kestra 10th Anniversary
@The Lab
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgLEX7mrbKY Aurora Josephson 
http://www.aurorarising.com 
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From letucepry at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  4 12:18:47 2007
From: letucepry at yahoo.com (Ron Lettuce)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
Message-ID: <904925.98060.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

TRY GARY INDIANA. You can get whole houses there for NOTHING...Why is it exactly that you all think you are owed an existance in the most coveted spot of land on earth...

----- Original Message ----
From: Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2007 12:02:09 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)


Cremaschi scribbled:

> And practice time? How about those stories of bands renting giant
> flats in the Haight or farmhouses in Marin for $50 a month?
> If all you had to do was come up with 10 bucks every month,
> that would sure leave a lot of time for practice, drugs and
> hippie girls named Sunshine.
> 
> Where's the fucking time machine?

Weasel proclaimed:

DEATH TO WEAK MUSICIANS!!! LET ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE!!!!

ww

PG:
That's some "brutal" Darwinism, but I can dig it.

I don't know; I wouldn't mind going back to paying $62 a month for rent
and having lots of time to practice. Her name wasn't Sunshine, it was
Gina...all we did was practice (she played alto and piano), ate good
food (grew lots of it in the garden), smoked pot and read to each other
in bed. I could use a few weeks of that, if nothing more...

; )

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  4 12:56:54 2007
From: jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com (Jacob Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:56:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] [BA-NEWMUS:50] Re: 21 Grand Brass Band
In-Reply-To: <20070531.192905.3976.24.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <535078.36598.qm@web58015.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I agree with Weasel here.  I have to say, that as much
as I respect the DIY aspect of things, I really am not
interested in checking out recordings put out on the
internet, on CDRs with shitty packaging, etc.  My
feeling being that if the music is not good enough to
put in the effort to make a professional looking
product then it is probably not worth my time or money
to check out.

--- weasel walter <weaselw at juno.com> wrote:

> i still think there's a formal discipline to
> releasing physical product
> that does help filter out some chaff. if all anybody
> has to do is upload
> any old shit to a server and start selling it, the
> holes in the sieve
> disappear. there's way too much recorded music
> available for most people
> to seriously deal with. i suppose in some ways it's
> all around better for
> the industry if it is harder to distribute and
> release things. people
> then innately have to try harder and put more work
> and thought into what
> they're doing.
> 
> ww
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 


Jacob Lindsay
http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44
http://www.myspace.com/mryellowcake


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Mon Jun  4 12:59:52 2007
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:59:52 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
In-Reply-To: <904925.98060.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00db01c7a6e2$eae58ac0$4001a8c0@PG>

Gary Indiana the film critic?
He's a great writer...

;)
PG

Phillip Greenlief
c/o Evander Music
PO Box 22158 Oakland, CA
94623-9991
www.evandermusic.com

-----Original Message-----
From: newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu
[mailto:newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Lettuce
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:19 PM
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)

TRY GARY INDIANA. You can get whole houses there for NOTHING...Why is it
exactly that you all think you are owed an existance in the most coveted
spot of land on earth...

----- Original Message ----
From: Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2007 12:02:09 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)


Cremaschi scribbled:

> And practice time? How about those stories of bands renting giant
> flats in the Haight or farmhouses in Marin for $50 a month?
> If all you had to do was come up with 10 bucks every month,
> that would sure leave a lot of time for practice, drugs and
> hippie girls named Sunshine.
> 
> Where's the fucking time machine?

Weasel proclaimed:

DEATH TO WEAK MUSICIANS!!! LET ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE!!!!

ww

PG:
That's some "brutal" Darwinism, but I can dig it.

I don't know; I wouldn't mind going back to paying $62 a month for rent
and having lots of time to practice. Her name wasn't Sunshine, it was
Gina...all we did was practice (she played alto and piano), ate good
food (grew lots of it in the garden), smoked pot and read to each other
in bed. I could use a few weeks of that, if nothing more...

; )

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Mon Jun  4 13:02:46 2007
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (matthew at matthewgoodheart.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:02:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Dying Industry...(sic)
Message-ID: <54288.76.80.93.31.1180987366.squirrel@matthewgoodheart.com>

Nice post Jonathan.

> and was listening to old shows from the fillmore east and west. one thing
> that struck me was that rock musicians in their 20s or early 30s were
pretty
> good back in the late 60s. clapton was even good then. so, was it musical
> training in schools? was it practice time? cuz, man, the bands now that
are sent up
> and over the peak of popularity to has-been land before the players are 30,
> they really suck.

Well, using your argument below, it could be the "success" of the punk: 
the 1976 quote from Sideburns: "This is a chord, this is another, this is
a third. Now form a band."

 >(we won! yay. all our socialist values end up marginalizing us in the
modern capitalism!)*
> *and other revolutions we won: microbrews, good coffee, good bagels;
> essentially college culture gone universal, along with the dorm room
> bands. the result? killian's red, starbucks, noah's. etc.

Well, I wouldn't call it socialist, because none of your examples have to
do with collectivisation; rather these are more closely related to
individua