From slusser at pixar.com  Sun Jun  1 09:59:59 2008
From: slusser at pixar.com (David Slusser)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:59:59 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] no one cares
In-Reply-To: <4378DE52-D997-4910-84E9-3DA8382F49D3@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <C4670789.25050%21grand@21grand.org>
	<4378DE52-D997-4910-84E9-3DA8382F49D3@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <2C3E0786-7DD9-428C-83DB-57881974CCAE@pixar.com>

word

On May 31, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Matthew Goodheart wrote:
>
> .... what if the needs of the work
> are in opposition to the assumptions of the medium? One is, in such a
> case, rather prevented from making certain kinds of complex
> explorations statements, aesthetic or otherwise; particularly in an
> environment that feigns openness yet is so heavily indoctrinated. . .
> or perhaps that is merely a reflection of my "self". . .

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sun Jun  1 11:14:27 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Ingle's phone number?
In-Reply-To: <4378DE52-D997-4910-84E9-3DA8382F49D3@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <319286.27617.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Anyone have Jon Ingle's phone number? I am trying to find a sub for a recording session today...need it asap....
   
  Jon, are you lurking on the list? If so, call Jason Levis at 510-517-1740 - he's looking for a great saxophonist that can read really well (difficult parts!) and improvise. The recording session pays $50 plus food....and it is today.
   
  Thanks!
PG


From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Sun Jun  1 11:16:45 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:16:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Ingle's phone number?
In-Reply-To: <319286.27617.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <454685.85405.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

P.S...
   
  If you have Ingle's number, email me off-list...
   
  pgsaxo at pacbell.net
   
  Thanks!
PG

Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net> wrote:
  Anyone have Jon Ingle's phone number? I am trying to find a sub for a recording session today...need it asap....

Jon, are you lurking on the list? If so, call Jason Levis at 510-517-1740 - he's looking for a great saxophonist that can read really well (difficult parts!) and improvise. The recording session pays $50 plus food....and it is today.

Thanks!
PG

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From electric.tokyo at gmail.com  Sun Jun  1 11:22:05 2008
From: electric.tokyo at gmail.com (Travis Johns)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:22:05 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] ::vslkast10::
Message-ID: <d3165c060806011122y7defa89bldc5fd5262aa3daf2@mail.gmail.com>

hallo,

hot on the heels of the 24 hour drone, i present installation number
10 of the vslkast series - this one being culled from recordings of
Satellite's recent jaunt on the east coast and officially "premiered"
at aforementioned drone. 2 more to go after this - then i begin
working on re-tooling the entire piece for multichannel. then we
party.

anyhoo, feel free to take a listen and as always,
questions/comments/suggestions, they be appreciated.

link = feed://think-tankmedia.net/trav/vslkast.xml

best,

t.

From liberatednsf at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  1 11:42:32 2008
From: liberatednsf at yahoo.com (andrew wilshusen)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:42:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] tabla solo entitled 'no one cares'
Message-ID: <54306.83338.qm@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

At least two of you asked for it:
http://www.andrewwilshusen.com/sample/tabla3.mp3
a little too close-mic'ed, but it was either that or?all dc hum....
AndrewEv oida oti oudev oida


http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
http://oudevoida.blogspot.com


      

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Sun Jun  1 11:58:16 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:58:16 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] a little bit of fun
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806011158q7bc84134yb3b11910d205fc29@mail.gmail.com>

okay, i had to pass this along because it has lots of great details in it
that just about made me die laughing.

http://www.theinternetnowinhandybookform.com/schmapple/dreamonpro.html


enjoy!

k

-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From hylaster at gmail.com  Sun Jun  1 15:19:00 2008
From: hylaster at gmail.com (chuck j)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:19:00 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] summer sublet in Oakland live/work space
Message-ID: <cb5fb3050806011519g482287dbif7db18c335c806b5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all. I am subletting my room in a converted warehouse space at 671 24th
St in Oakland. Some of you may know the place as an occasional venue
(Totally Intense Fractal Mindgaze Hut.) And many of you know my housemates.

The room is available from mid-June until July 31. The room will be
furnished and will contain my belongings, but there is a lot of space in the
common areas. The rent is $485 for the month of July or $700 for the period
June 16 - July 31.

Thanks and feel free to contact me with questions.
chuck


-- 
________________
Chuck Johnson
hylaster at gmail.com
www.cirrusoxide.com

From aliciabyer at gmail.com  Sun Jun  1 15:30:11 2008
From: aliciabyer at gmail.com (Alicia Byer)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:30:11 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] summer sublet in Oakland live/work space
In-Reply-To: <cb5fb3050806011519g482287dbif7db18c335c806b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb5fb3050806011519g482287dbif7db18c335c806b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <484322F3.50706@gmail.com>

Hi chuck,

I'm interested in your space. I'm a musician, and I think I know some 
people there (at least I knew the folks there a couple years ago!) Let 
me know if I can come see it soon

Thanks,
Alicia Byer
510-316-9478

chuck j wrote:
> Hi all. I am subletting my room in a converted warehouse space at 671 24th
> St in Oakland. Some of you may know the place as an occasional venue
> (Totally Intense Fractal Mindgaze Hut.) And many of you know my housemates.
>
> The room is available from mid-June until July 31. The room will be
> furnished and will contain my belongings, but there is a lot of space in the
> common areas. The rent is $485 for the month of July or $700 for the period
> June 16 - July 31.
>
> Thanks and feel free to contact me with questions.
> chuck
>
>
>   


From letucepry at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  1 20:19:43 2008
From: letucepry at yahoo.com (Ron Lettuce)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:19:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] a little bit of fun
Message-ID: <920000.44658.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Dude, none of the links work....and WHERE IS THE BUY IT NOW BUTTON? I NEED THIS SOFTWARE...
nearly pissed my pants, cause it cuts so close to home...when I delivered pizza for a living, I used to spend 30 hrs a week programming synths and drum machines, now (since I spend ~35 hours of my workweek on a computer) I don't even record anything, cause it involves the computer...if I EVER program anything, it's some kind of miracle, and never results in ANYTHING, BUT yet, when I was spitting out loads of (electronic) content, it was all FM synth and Drum machines (read etched in clay with a stylus)...

lettuce
----- Original Message ----
From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 11:58:16 AM
Subject: [NewMusic] a little bit of fun

okay, i had to pass this along because it has lots of great details in it
that just about made me die laughing.

http://www.theinternetnowinhandybookform.com/schmapple/dreamonpro.html


enjoy!

k

-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Sun Jun  1 21:08:44 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:08:44 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] a little bit of fun
In-Reply-To: <920000.44658.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <920000.44658.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806012108p3f27377bw73d1a527e2eedce7@mail.gmail.com>

HA!

if you DO manage to find a working link, it usually leads to:

http://www.theinternetnowinhandybookform.com/schmapple/buynow.html

which gets you to a really nice little spoof of sharper image (cocoon for
men), an amazon spoof, etc.

k

On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dude, none of the links work....and WHERE IS THE BUY IT NOW BUTTON? I NEED
> THIS SOFTWARE...
> nearly pissed my pants, cause it cuts so close to home...when I delivered
> pizza for a living, I used to spend 30 hrs a week programming synths and
> drum machines, now (since I spend ~35 hours of my workweek on a computer) I
> don't even record anything, cause it involves the computer...if I EVER
> program anything, it's some kind of miracle, and never results in ANYTHING,
> BUT yet, when I was spitting out loads of (electronic) content, it was all
> FM synth and Drum machines (read etched in clay with a stylus)...
>
> lettuce
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 11:58:16 AM
> Subject: [NewMusic] a little bit of fun
>
> okay, i had to pass this along because it has lots of great details in it
> that just about made me die laughing.
>
> http://www.theinternetnowinhandybookform.com/schmapple/dreamonpro.html
>
>
> enjoy!
>
> k
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From td at pixar.com  Sun Jun  1 22:38:53 2008
From: td at pixar.com (Tom Duff)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Too many Skronkathon proposals
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806012223190.18084@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>


I've never had to say this before, but the Skronkathon is completely
booked up.  I have 20 proposals in hand and that's all we can reasonably
accomodate.  Now, usually two or three will cancel (and once or twice
we've had a no-show) so I guess we should have a waiting list.  With that
in mind, feel free to keep sending proposals to td at pixar.com.

Also, mail to damon at balancepointacoustics.com is bouncing.  Damon:  
you're on the program, but you need to send me more detailed information
ASAP so I can get publicity releases together.  (Who are you planning to
play with?  Solo?)

Here's the bounce report.  As far as I can tell it means that Damon's ISP
hates me for not jumping through some unspecified hoop:

The following message to <damon at balancepointacoustics.com> was 
undeliverable.
The reason for the problem:
5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Verification failed for
<prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout verification
failure\nSender verify failed'

    [ Part 2: "Delivery Status" ]

Reporting-MTA: dns; emx.pixar.com

Final-Recipient: rfc822;damon at balancepointacoustics.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)
Remote-MTA: dns; [67.15.16.13]
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Verification 
failed
for <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout verification
failure\nSender verify failed' (delivery attempts: 0)


-- 
Tom Duff.  BTW, I considered just mailing Loren directly.

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Mon Jun  2 08:37:05 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:37:05 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Too many Skronkathon proposals
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806012223190.18084@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806012223190.18084@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>
Message-ID: <FC6836A7-9545-4162-AAEF-7E7A109D8784@balancepointacoustics.com>

My web host has been lame lately.  I am in Chicago until wed.  Can I  
tell you then? I can also drop out if you need the room.
On Jun 1, 2008, at 10:38 PM, Tom Duff wrote:

>
> I've never had to say this before, but the Skronkathon is completely
> booked up.  I have 20 proposals in hand and that's all we can  
> reasonably
> accomodate.  Now, usually two or three will cancel (and once or twice
> we've had a no-show) so I guess we should have a waiting list.   
> With that
> in mind, feel free to keep sending proposals to td at pixar.com.
>
> Also, mail to damon at balancepointacoustics.com is bouncing.  Damon:
> you're on the program, but you need to send me more detailed  
> information
> ASAP so I can get publicity releases together.  (Who are you  
> planning to
> play with?  Solo?)
>
> Here's the bounce report.  As far as I can tell it means that  
> Damon's ISP
> hates me for not jumping through some unspecified hoop:
>
> The following message to <damon at balancepointacoustics.com> was
> undeliverable.
> The reason for the problem:
> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Verification failed for
> <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout verification
> failure\nSender verify failed'
>
>     [ Part 2: "Delivery Status" ]
>
> Reporting-MTA: dns; emx.pixar.com
>
> Final-Recipient: rfc822;damon at balancepointacoustics.com
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)
> Remote-MTA: dns; [67.15.16.13]
> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Verification
> failed
> for <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout  
> verification
> failure\nSender verify failed' (delivery attempts: 0)
>
>
> -- 
> Tom Duff.  BTW, I considered just mailing Loren directly.
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From tbickley at metatronpress.com  Mon Jun  2 12:53:05 2008
From: tbickley at metatronpress.com (Tom Bickley)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:53:05 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Too many Skronkathon proposals
In-Reply-To: <FC6836A7-9545-4162-AAEF-7E7A109D8784@balancepointacoustics.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806012223190.18084@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>
	<FC6836A7-9545-4162-AAEF-7E7A109D8784@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <867B19DE-934B-4D9B-ABE4-2928AF16DF4D@metatronpress.com>

Maybe it's time for a Skronkathon Fringe? ;-) -Tom


>
>
>>
>> I've never had to say this before, but the Skronkathon is completely
>> booked up.  I have 20 proposals in hand and that's all we can
>> reasonably
>> accomodate.  Now, usually two or three will cancel (and once or twice
>> we've had a no-show) so I guess we should have a waiting list.
>> With that
>> in mind, feel free to keep sending proposals to td at pixar.com.
>>
>> Also, mail to damon at balancepointacoustics.com is bouncing.  Damon:
>> you're on the program, but you need to send me more detailed
>> information
>> ASAP so I can get publicity releases together.  (Who are you
>> planning to
>> play with?  Solo?)
>>
>> Here's the bounce report.  As far as I can tell it means that
>> Damon's ISP
>> hates me for not jumping through some unspecified hoop:
>>
>> The following message to <damon at balancepointacoustics.com> was
>> undeliverable.
>> The reason for the problem:
>> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Verification failed for
>> <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout verification
>> failure\nSender verify failed'
>>
>>     [ Part 2: "Delivery Status" ]
>>
>> Reporting-MTA: dns; emx.pixar.com
>>
>> Final-Recipient: rfc822;damon at balancepointacoustics.com
>> Action: failed
>> Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)
>> Remote-MTA: dns; [67.15.16.13]
>> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error  
>> 550-'Verification
>> failed
>> for <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout
>> verification
>> failure\nSender verify failed' (delivery attempts: 0)
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Tom Duff.  BTW, I considered just mailing Loren directly.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> Damon Smith
>
> http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
> http://myspace.com/smithdamon
> New solo project:
> http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Mon Jun  2 12:57:24 2008
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:57:24 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Too many Skronkathon proposals
In-Reply-To: <867B19DE-934B-4D9B-ABE4-2928AF16DF4D@metatronpress.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806012223190.18084@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>
	<FC6836A7-9545-4162-AAEF-7E7A109D8784@balancepointacoustics.com>
	<867B19DE-934B-4D9B-ABE4-2928AF16DF4D@metatronpress.com>
Message-ID: <AD638306-8441-4060-9702-34296ACD64BD@matthewgoodheart.com>

How about the SkrontAltAthon?

On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:53 PM, Tom Bickley wrote:

> Maybe it's time for a Skronkathon Fringe? ;-) -Tom
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I've never had to say this before, but the Skronkathon is completely
>>> booked up.  I have 20 proposals in hand and that's all we can
>>> reasonably
>>> accomodate.  Now, usually two or three will cancel (and once or  
>>> twice
>>> we've had a no-show) so I guess we should have a waiting list.
>>> With that
>>> in mind, feel free to keep sending proposals to td at pixar.com.
>>>
>>> Also, mail to damon at balancepointacoustics.com is bouncing.  Damon:
>>> you're on the program, but you need to send me more detailed
>>> information
>>> ASAP so I can get publicity releases together.  (Who are you
>>> planning to
>>> play with?  Solo?)
>>>
>>> Here's the bounce report.  As far as I can tell it means that
>>> Damon's ISP
>>> hates me for not jumping through some unspecified hoop:
>>>
>>> The following message to <damon at balancepointacoustics.com> was
>>> undeliverable.
>>> The reason for the problem:
>>> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Verification failed for
>>> <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout  
>>> verification
>>> failure\nSender verify failed'
>>>
>>>    [ Part 2: "Delivery Status" ]
>>>
>>> Reporting-MTA: dns; emx.pixar.com
>>>
>>> Final-Recipient: rfc822;damon at balancepointacoustics.com
>>> Action: failed
>>> Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)
>>> Remote-MTA: dns; [67.15.16.13]
>>> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error
>>> 550-'Verification
>>> failed
>>> for <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout
>>> verification
>>> failure\nSender verify failed' (delivery attempts: 0)
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Tom Duff.  BTW, I considered just mailing Loren directly.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>> Damon Smith
>>
>> http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
>> http://myspace.com/smithdamon
>> New solo project:
>> http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart





From alee at tentacle.net  Mon Jun  2 14:44:50 2008
From: alee at tentacle.net (Alee Omar Karim)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:44:50 +1200
Subject: [NewMusic] do you want to live with me and Ava?
Message-ID: <20080603094450.18161m25t81jgvde@mail.tentacle.net>

If you've been hankering to live in a musician-filled house in  
Oakland, well now is your chance. We have a room open NOW in our house  
off Park Bl. in the quiet and completely innocuous neighborhood of  
Glenview. The current occupants are me, Ava Mendoza, and Kimberly  
Miller, a classical vocalist. Two friendly animals as well: Wiki, a  
german shepherd and Ava's cat, Godzilla! It's a house with lots of  
room for equipment and very amenable for playing/rehearsing at mild  
volumes (and only a little less amenable to not so mild volumes).  
Needless to say, this house is ideally suited for a musician and we  
are really keen on picking one (but if you're sincerely OK with lots  
of tinkering and sound then feel free to inquire). Rent is $600 a  
month and there's a $400 deposit. Write me off-list if interested and  
feel free to forward with a reasonable amount of discretion.

alee at tentacle.net

From Gino.Robair at penton.com  Mon Jun  2 16:30:45 2008
From: Gino.Robair at penton.com (Robair, Gino)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:30:45 -0500
Subject: [NewMusic] Butcher workshop:  last two openings
Message-ID: <C469D0B5.13F0F%Gino.Robair@penton.com>

Hey listers,
Speaking of workshops...
We've got two more spots available for the John Butcher workshop on
Saturday, June 7 in Emeryville, CA.

Don't miss this opportunity to work with one of the most exciting and
innovative reed players on the improv scene. His concepts for group and solo
improvisation are very interesting, starting with the work of John Stevens,
and moving in unique directions based on his experience playing with top
artists around the globe.

The workshop will start around 2:30 pm. Email me off-list and I'll send you
the details.

And don't forget to come hear him play at Sperryfest! See the New Music
Events list for details...

Sausage,
ginorobair


From dmichalak at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun  3 08:02:29 2008
From: dmichalak at sbcglobal.net (dmichalak)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:02:29 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Bo Diddley R.I.P.
References: <C469D0B5.13F0F%Gino.Robair@penton.com>
Message-ID: <000701c8c58a$d800d0f0$6501a8c0@eyefull01>

A unique character too be sure; homemade guitars, a maraca player as main 
man, a woman guitar player, african rhythmns, chants and R&R beats.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/bo-diddley-rocks-rhythm-king-dies-20080603-2laq.html


Round the world in a station wagon
Workin' the road till his tail was draggin'
Huffin' and Puffin' and makin' 'em dance
never once seen that cash advance.

pay Bo Diddley!


From michaelz at zoka.com  Tue Jun  3 09:00:53 2008
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:00:53 -0400
Subject: [NewMusic] Bo Diddley R.I.P.
In-Reply-To: <000701c8c58a$d800d0f0$6501a8c0@eyefull01>
References: <C469D0B5.13F0F%Gino.Robair@penton.com>
	<000701c8c58a$d800d0f0$6501a8c0@eyefull01>
Message-ID: <p06240804c46b1abdd494@[192.168.1.2]>

On 6/3/08, dmichalak quoted:

>Round the world in a station wagon
>Workin' the road till his tail was draggin'
>Huffin' and Puffin' and makin' 'em dance
>never once seen that cash advance.
>
>pay Bo Diddley!


Who ya gonna believe, David Lindley or the Chess family?

>For decades Mr. Diddley was bitter about his relationship with the 
>Chess family, whom he accused of withholding money owed to him. In 
>her book "Spinning Blues Into Gold," Nadine Cohodas quoted Marshall 
>Chess, Leonard's son, as saying, "What's missing from Bo's version 
>of events is all the gimmes." Mr. Diddley would borrow so heavily 
>against projected royalties, Mr. Chess said, that not much was left 
>over in the final accounting.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/arts/music/03diddley.html?pagewanted=2>

MZ

From dmichalak at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun  3 09:07:07 2008
From: dmichalak at sbcglobal.net (dmichalak)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:07:07 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Bo Diddley R.I.P.
References: <C469D0B5.13F0F%Gino.Robair@penton.com><000701c8c58a$d800d0f0$6501a8c0@eyefull01>
	<p06240804c46b1abdd494@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <007801c8c593$dfe3ece0$6501a8c0@eyefull01>

David Lindley (actually the Snakes)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Zelner" <michaelz at zoka.com>
To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Bo Diddley R.I.P.


> On 6/3/08, dmichalak quoted:
>
>>Round the world in a station wagon
>>Workin' the road till his tail was draggin'
>>Huffin' and Puffin' and makin' 'em dance
>>never once seen that cash advance.
>>
>>pay Bo Diddley!
>
>
> Who ya gonna believe, David Lindley or the Chess family?
>
>>For decades Mr. Diddley was bitter about his relationship with the
>>Chess family, whom he accused of withholding money owed to him. In
>>her book "Spinning Blues Into Gold," Nadine Cohodas quoted Marshall
>>Chess, Leonard's son, as saying, "What's missing from Bo's version
>>of events is all the gimmes." Mr. Diddley would borrow so heavily
>>against projected royalties, Mr. Chess said, that not much was left
>>over in the final accounting.
>
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/arts/music/03diddley.html?pagewanted=2>
>
> MZ
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1480 - Release Date: 6/3/2008 
> 7:00 AM
>
> 


From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Tue Jun  3 09:52:38 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:52:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Bo Diddley R.I.P.
In-Reply-To: <p06240804c46b1abdd494@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <246854.1361.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yo,
   
  Bo Diddley lived (for a while) next door to my childhood friend, Doug Holcomb (on Kingsbury Street in Granada Hills, CA). We would be playing in the yard (circa 5th/6th grade) and he would come home, park the car in the driveway, go to the back of the car, get out his gear, and stroll into his house...we would just freeze in our tracks...."there's Bo Diddley!"
   
  Check out the album "Gunslinger"...those guitar sounds he was getting (WAY back in the day) are so fantastic: totally over-driven, gnarly, like the best examples of someone like Nels Cline, he often sounded like he was playing way over his head...you know there's about a million guitar players today that wish they could sound like that.
   
  PG

   
  
Michael Zelner <michaelz at zoka.com> wrote:
  On 6/3/08, dmichalak quoted:

>Round the world in a station wagon
>Workin' the road till his tail was draggin'
>Huffin' and Puffin' and makin' 'em dance
>never once seen that cash advance.
>
>pay Bo Diddley!


Who ya gonna believe, David Lindley or the Chess family?

>For decades Mr. Diddley was bitter about his relationship with the 
>Chess family, whom he accused of withholding money owed to him. In 
>her book "Spinning Blues Into Gold," Nadine Cohodas quoted Marshall 
>Chess, Leonard's son, as saying, "What's missing from Bo's version 
>of events is all the gimmes." Mr. Diddley would borrow so heavily 
>against projected royalties, Mr. Chess said, that not much was left 
>over in the final accounting.



MZ
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  3 10:43:27 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (Jon Raskin)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:43:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Bo Diddley R.I.P.
Message-ID: <218704.75183.qm@web55614.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

One of the best concerts I ever attended was a Bo Diddley performance on Haight street?in the late 70's.? Unbelievable quitar playing which?left the tonal world and entered into?sound world all the time his band was clogging to his famous beat.? The bandstand?rose into the air.
?Jon Raskin



----- Original Message ----
From: Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 9:52:38 AM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Bo Diddley R.I.P.

Yo,
? 
? Bo Diddley lived (for a while) next door to my childhood friend, Doug Holcomb (on Kingsbury Street in Granada Hills, CA). We would be playing in the yard (circa 5th/6th grade) and he would come home, park the car in the driveway, go to the back of the car, get out his gear, and stroll into his house...we would just freeze in our tracks...."there's Bo Diddley!"
? 
? Check out the album "Gunslinger"...those guitar sounds he was getting (WAY back in the day) are so fantastic: totally over-driven, gnarly, like the best examples of someone like Nels Cline, he often sounded like he was playing way over his head...you know there's about a million guitar players today that wish they could sound like that.
? 
? PG

? 
? 
Michael Zelner <michaelz at zoka.com> wrote:
? On 6/3/08, dmichalak quoted:

>Round the world in a station wagon
>Workin' the road till his tail was draggin'
>Huffin' and Puffin' and makin' 'em dance
>never once seen that cash advance.
>
>pay Bo Diddley!


Who ya gonna believe, David Lindley or the Chess family?

>For decades Mr. Diddley was bitter about his relationship with the 
>Chess family, whom he accused of withholding money owed to him. In 
>her book "Spinning Blues Into Gold," Nadine Cohodas quoted Marshall 
>Chess, Leonard's son, as saying, "What's missing from Bo's version 
>of events is all the gimmes." Mr. Diddley would borrow so heavily 
>against projected royalties, Mr. Chess said, that not much was left 
>over in the final accounting.



MZ
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From djcypod at gmail.com  Tue Jun  3 13:57:44 2008
From: djcypod at gmail.com (beau)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:57:44 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Go out and Vote for Mark Briggs!
Message-ID: <fc5507fa0806031357x669633b9v12b8c043c6902a02@mail.gmail.com>

today is election day, and one of our very own Mark Briggs (guitar
player for Dud) is running for Democratic Party Central Committee;
County of Alameda; Assembly District 16

http://www.smartvoter.org/2008/06/03/ca/alm/vote/briggs_m/

From djcypod at gmail.com  Thu Jun  5 22:32:49 2008
From: djcypod at gmail.com (beau)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:32:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>

then there is always iband

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0VX74alwk&feature=related




On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
> in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
>
> http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially painful.
>> Can
>> the franchise bomb overnight?
>>
>> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
>>
>> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all. It's
>> more
>> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly this
>> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it worse.
>> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star Supernova
>> reality show a couple years ago.)
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From moestaiano1 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  6 00:23:16 2008
From: moestaiano1 at yahoo.com (Moe! Staiano)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:23:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flyering places?
Message-ID: <499610.26220.qm@web59015.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hi!

I done up a great flyer that I want to hang up. Besides both Amoeba Records, Mama Buzz Cafe and Aquarius Records in SF, would anyone know of recommended places to hang flyers that generates visual traffic? (?)

I know I used to hang posters up for Beanbenders long time ago on telephone poles and places on Telegraph, but I know times have changed. Are there places I should hang a poster up? Thanks.

-M!



      

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Fri Jun  6 08:16:25 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flyering places?
In-Reply-To: <499610.26220.qm@web59015.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <778597.48795.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

damon is the new avant garde poster boy...what says you on the subject, d?
   
  pg

Moe! Staiano <moestaiano1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
  Hi!

I done up a great flyer that I want to hang up. Besides both Amoeba Records, Mama Buzz Cafe and Aquarius Records in SF, would anyone know of recommended places to hang flyers that generates visual traffic? (?)

I know I used to hang posters up for Beanbenders long time ago on telephone poles and places on Telegraph, but I know times have changed. Are there places I should hang a poster up? Thanks.

-M!




_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Fri Jun  6 08:24:10 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:24:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Kidd Jordan, Vision, New Languages, et al...
In-Reply-To: <499610.26220.qm@web59015.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <149755.34324.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

June 6, 2008

MUSIC

For Jazz?s Avant-Garde, an Annual Gathering and a Little Competition

By NATE CHINEN
  
During his youth, the New Orleans tenor saxophonist Kidd Jordan worked
 with some of the brightest lights of soul and R&B, like Ray Charles, Aretha
Franklin and Stevie Wonder. And that?s just for starters. ?You name
 the genre, I?ve done it,? Mr. Jordan, 73, said this week from Baton
 Rouge, La., his temporary home since shortly after Hurricane Katrina hit in 2005.
 ?But when I was playing in all those other genres, I wasn?t satisfied with
 what I was doing. I always was one of them who would search, and keep
 searching.?

Next week Mr. Jordan will reap some recognition for his searching: a
lifetime achievement honor at the Vision Festival, widely recognized as
 this country?s premier gathering for free jazz and improvised music. Now in
 its 13th year, the festival runs from Tuesday through June 15 at the
 Clemente Soto V?lez Cultural Center on the Lower East Side, a longtime nexus of
experimentation and a site of much recent transition.

With its devotion to the jazz avant-garde, the Vision Festival serves
 as a gravitational center, pulling musicians in from the margins. Not
surprisingly it has often been cast as an eccentrically gritty  rejoinder to the JVC Jazz Festival, which starts on June 15 this year. (In seasons  past, David and Goliath have more directly overlapped.) This year the Vision Festival has its own competition, the New Languages Festival, being held a couple of blocks away at the Living Theater.

Increasingly, though, the Vision Festival has developed a stand-alone
reputation. Its programming, which mixes old-timers like Mr. Jordan
 with newer arrivals like the cornetist Taylor Ho Bynum, confirms the
 continuing vigor of experimental improvised music, a current of the New York
underground through much of the last 50 years. Owing to the influence
 of Patricia Nicholson Parker, a founder and the chairwoman, who has a
background in modern dance, the Vision Festival also presents related
 arts, including dance, poetry and, this year, two site-specific
 installations.

The festival draws an audience impressive not only for its actual
 existence (hardly a given in this particular field) but also for its
 heterogeneity. One survey conducted at the event in 2006 found that nearly half the
attendees lived outside the New York area.

?People come from France, Japan, England, Germany,? said the bassist
 William Parker, Ms. Nicholson Parker?s husband. ?There?s a following all
 over the world.? To some extent, this internationalism is echoed in the lineup,
 which this year includes the English tenor saxophonist Paul Dunmall and the
 French bassist Jo?lle L?andre, influential figures on the European new-music
 scene.

But there?s also something deeply local about the Vision Festival and
 its constituency, which reeled after the April 2007 closing of Tonic, an
important performance space in the area. Last year?s edition of the
 festival was held down the street from that club?s shuttered site, and at times
 it conveyed the feeling of a wake.

For avant-gardists and their supporters, the gentrification that squeezed
out Tonic was a sharp spur to action. The guitarist Marc Ribot, whose
 part in a protest at the ill-fated club led to his arrest, brought much
 attention to the cause through word as well as deed. One of his arguments
 centered on the need for civic support in the face of market pressures.

?It?s not a question of not having a space,? Mr. Ribot reiterated
 this week. ?It?s a question of spaces that pay.? With precious few exceptions,
 the post-Tonic avant-garde landscape in the city involves smaller rooms in
relatively more remote locations; tip jars are often the means of collection.

?It?s not the end of the world,? Mr. Ribot said. ?There are still great musicians in New York. But marginal differences over time can have big effects.?

Last fall Ms. Nicholson Parker announced the formation of the advocacy group Rise Up Creative Music and Arts. Along with Mr. Parker, she articulated the organization?s goals at a town hall meeting in April. (Mr. Ribot was among those present, though he says he has not been directly involved with the group since.)

?This music, all the really innovative music, has been marginalized and pushed aside,? Ms. Nicholson Parker said recently. ?A lot of this is urban planning, or the lack thereof.?

The most visible result of Rise Up Creative Music and Arts, so far, is the Vision/Rucma Series, held most weekends this year at the Living Theater on the Lower East Side. In addition to raising awareness for a cause, the series has supported the Vision Festival brand; after a brief hiatus, the series will resume on June 19 with a concert by the trumpeter Roy Campbell.

Next week, meanwhile, the Living Theater serves as home to the New Languages
Festival (newlanguages.org). Now in its fourth season, that event is musician-run and progressive-minded, like its more established counterpart.

The alto saxophonist Jackson Moore, one of the founders of the upstart event, said the timing was an accident. But, he added in an e-mail message,?It?s a bit of cosmic good fortune that the Vision Festival and the New Languages Festival are down the street from each other.? He suggested that the adjacent festivals ?might just reach a combined critical mass that will bring new listeners into the fold.?

Self-sufficiency and an undercurrent of service are ideals evident in both festivals; Mr. Jordan, a self-starter throughout his career, is also being heralded for his important contribution to music education in New Orleans. In this sense the Vision Festival has been consistent: previous lifetime achievement honors went to the saxophonist Fred Anderson, the multireedist Sam Rivers and the trumpeter Bill Dixon. Each of these artists has been
 a social organizer, rallying his peers around a place and a cause.

Of course each has also been a searcher. ?I?ve been playing ?out? since the ?50s,? Mr. Jordan said, and laughed. ?I was experimenting then, and  I?m still experimenting. Maybe next week I?ll have something new.?

From michaelz at zoka.com  Fri Jun  6 09:51:12 2008
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:51:12 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Grosse Abfahrt CD review
Message-ID: <p06240854c46f0adee9aa@[192.168.0.2]>

Nice writeup in the June 2008 issue of The Wire:

-------------------
Grosse Abfahrt
Everything That Disappears
Emanem CD

Reviewed by Edwin Pouncey

Devised by San Franciscan [sic] trumpet player Tom Djll, Grosse 
Abfahrt (Great Departure) is a project where a group of Bay Area 
musicians are teamed with guests from another state or country. For 
the third of these collaborations Djll invited French pianist 
Frederic Blondy and Vietnamese [sic] percussionist Le Quan Ninh to 
join a group that was made up of bass clarinettist Matt Ingalls, 
guitarist John Shibura [sic], bass player George Cremaschi, John 
Bischoff and Tom Perkis on electronics and Gino Robair on "energised 
surfaces and voltage made audible." What emerges is a series of 
highly tactile abstract sound paintings,each one flecked with 
vibrations from Djll's frantically active and ambitious ensemble. A 
title like "Geometric Undulating Driveway Symmetrical, All The Road 
Of Masters" could easily be associated with AMM, and in many ways -- 
the ensemble's almost Rowe-like use of electronics for example -- 
Grosse Abfahrt could be viewed as a reflection of that great group, 
with guest musicians Blondy and Ninh (admittedly unintentionally) 
taking on the roles of John Tilbury and Eddie Prevost. That aside, 
this is a masterfully played and constructed example of big band 
improvisation with equally big ideas swarming through it.
-------------------

MZ

--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Fri Jun  6 10:22:35 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:22:35 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flyering places?
In-Reply-To: <778597.48795.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <778597.48795.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CF2199F8-86A3-478A-B394-AE33C3435F74@balancepointacoustics.com>

Laundry mats are the best. People actually need something to read  
there, record stores and other place people go with a lot of visual  
stimulus are not always the best places, although they can still work  
because people might be looking for what is happening.

Side rant:
Amoeba is pretty lame about flyers, I was uncovering one of mine and  
the bag check hiptard got confrontational with me, even though I had  
just spent $70 there.
They let their employees be such jerks, from situations like this to  
the used buyers getting pissy when you call them on low balling you  
-  I really try to spend as little as possible there.
At a certain point I realized I had never had so much poor treatment  
at a place I had spent 10s of thousands of dollars.

On Jun 6, 2008, at 8:16 AM, Phillip Greenlief wrote:

> damon is the new avant garde poster boy...what says you on the  
> subject, d?
>
>   pg
>
> Moe! Staiano <moestaiano1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   Hi!
>
> I done up a great flyer that I want to hang up. Besides both Amoeba  
> Records, Mama Buzz Cafe and Aquarius Records in SF, would anyone  
> know of recommended places to hang flyers that generates visual  
> traffic? (?)
>
> I know I used to hang posters up for Beanbenders long time ago on  
> telephone poles and places on Telegraph, but I know times have  
> changed. Are there places I should hang a poster up? Thanks.
>
> -M!
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From ingalls at mills.edu  Fri Jun  6 10:28:00 2008
From: ingalls at mills.edu (Matt J. Ingalls)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:28:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Grosse Abfahrt CD review
In-Reply-To: <p06240854c46f0adee9aa@[192.168.0.2]>
References: <p06240854c46f0adee9aa@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806061027260.25307@myfiles.mills.edu>


and *why* don't i read the wire? :)


On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Michael Zelner wrote:

> Nice writeup in the June 2008 issue of The Wire:
>
> -------------------
> Grosse Abfahrt
> Everything That Disappears
> Emanem CD
>
> Reviewed by Edwin Pouncey
>
> Devised by San Franciscan [sic] trumpet player Tom Djll, Grosse
> Abfahrt (Great Departure) is a project where a group of Bay Area
> musicians are teamed with guests from another state or country. For
> the third of these collaborations Djll invited French pianist
> Frederic Blondy and Vietnamese [sic] percussionist Le Quan Ninh to
> join a group that was made up of bass clarinettist Matt Ingalls,
> guitarist John Shibura [sic], bass player George Cremaschi, John
> Bischoff and Tom Perkis on electronics and Gino Robair on "energised
> surfaces and voltage made audible." What emerges is a series of
> highly tactile abstract sound paintings,each one flecked with
> vibrations from Djll's frantically active and ambitious ensemble. A
> title like "Geometric Undulating Driveway Symmetrical, All The Road
> Of Masters" could easily be associated with AMM, and in many ways --
> the ensemble's almost Rowe-like use of electronics for example --
> Grosse Abfahrt could be viewed as a reflection of that great group,
> with guest musicians Blondy and Ninh (admittedly unintentionally)
> taking on the roles of John Tilbury and Eddie Prevost. That aside,
> this is a masterfully played and constructed example of big band
> improvisation with equally big ideas swarming through it.
> -------------------
>
> MZ
>
> --------------michaelz at zoka.com---
>             Michael Zelner
> ---Oakland CA USA------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From weaselw at juno.com  Fri Jun  6 10:43:12 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:43:12 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Grosse Abfahrt CD review
Message-ID: <20080606.104316.1820.43.weaselw@juno.com>

because they're totally [sic]!

ww

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:28:00 -0700 (PDT) "Matt J. Ingalls"
<ingalls at mills.edu> writes:
> 
> and *why* don't i read the wire? :)
> 
> 
> On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Michael Zelner wrote:
> 
> > Nice writeup in the June 2008 issue of The Wire:
> >
> > -------------------
> > Grosse Abfahrt
> > Everything That Disappears
> > Emanem CD
> >
> > Reviewed by Edwin Pouncey
> >
> > Devised by San Franciscan [sic] trumpet player Tom Djll, Grosse
> > Abfahrt (Great Departure) is a project where a group of Bay Area
> > musicians are teamed with guests from another state or country. 
> For
> > the third of these collaborations Djll invited French pianist
> > Frederic Blondy and Vietnamese [sic] percussionist Le Quan Ninh 
> to
> > join a group that was made up of bass clarinettist Matt Ingalls,
> > guitarist John Shibura [sic], bass player George Cremaschi, John
> > Bischoff and Tom Perkis on electronics and Gino Robair on 
> "energised
> > surfaces and voltage made audible." What emerges is a series of
> > highly tactile abstract sound paintings,each one flecked with
> > vibrations from Djll's frantically active and ambitious ensemble. 
> A
> > title like "Geometric Undulating Driveway Symmetrical, All The 
> Road
> > Of Masters" could easily be associated with AMM, and in many ways 
> --
> > the ensemble's almost Rowe-like use of electronics for example --
> > Grosse Abfahrt could be viewed as a reflection of that great 
> group,
> > with guest musicians Blondy and Ninh (admittedly unintentionally)
> > taking on the roles of John Tilbury and Eddie Prevost. That 
> aside,
> > this is a masterfully played and constructed example of big band
> > improvisation with equally big ideas swarming through it.
> > -------------------
> >
> > MZ
> >
> > --------------michaelz at zoka.com---
> >             Michael Zelner
> > ---Oakland CA USA------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> 
 
____________________________________________________________
Click here for free information on consolidating your debt.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2bkvjHuEUHTD7IKWF6ck3mDUeN2xpx6wmAo5qX4NVsYk3M/

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Fri Jun  6 11:24:49 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:24:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Flyering places?
Message-ID: <C46ECF01.251C2%21grand@21grand.org>

This is because you don't own a car and have never had to deal with either
a) the DMV or b) City of Oakland Parking Citation Unit

sl

Damon wrote:
At a certain point I realized I had never had so much poor treatment
at a place I had spent 10s of thousands of dollars.



From ingalls at mills.edu  Fri Jun  6 11:30:05 2008
From: ingalls at mills.edu (Matt J. Ingalls)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:30:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] sperry and butcher on sfSoundRadio
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806061124010.25704@myfiles.mills.edu>

i sent this to the list yesterday (should have been monday!) but i don't 
think it went through - 
sorry if it ends up being a duplicate:

right now i have sfSoundRadio playing all Matthew Sperry and John 
Butcher music:

http://sfsound.org:8000/home.html
http://sfsound.org/radio.html

-m

From ingalls at mills.edu  Fri Jun  6 11:33:01 2008
From: ingalls at mills.edu (Matt J. Ingalls)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:33:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] sperry and butcher on sfSoundRadio
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806061124010.25704@myfiles.mills.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806061124010.25704@myfiles.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806061132120.25704@myfiles.mills.edu>


sorry pasted the wrong linke,  - this one is for listening:

http://sfsound.org:8000/listen.pls


On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Matt J. Ingalls wrote:

> i sent this to the list yesterday (should have been monday!) but i don't
> think it went through -
> sorry if it ends up being a duplicate:
>
> right now i have sfSoundRadio playing all Matthew Sperry and John
> Butcher music:
>
> http://sfsound.org:8000/home.html
> http://sfsound.org/radio.html
>
> -m
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From Mylesaudio at aol.com  Fri Jun  6 11:57:20 2008
From: Mylesaudio at aol.com (Mylesaudio at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:57:20 EDT
Subject: [NewMusic] Sperryfest
Message-ID: <c4f.2d1921d6.357ae290@aol.com>

Last night's show was great all around, but I was sad to see it so sparsely 
attended. One of the world's greatest improvising/ extended technique sax 
players, with the cream of the crop local players, in a beautiful, great-sounding 
and comfortable setting. Where were all you people? Maybe you're all coming 
tonight?? Get your lazy asses out the house and come hear some beautiful music by 
local treasures Carla Kihlstedt and Fred Frith et. al.

Myles


**************
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with 
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
      
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&amp;NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

From bthrew at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 12:11:33 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:11:33 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Sperryfest
In-Reply-To: <c4f.2d1921d6.357ae290@aol.com>
References: <c4f.2d1921d6.357ae290@aol.com>
Message-ID: <958451D2-2064-4A41-910A-F79B714EA42B@gmail.com>

Zero1.

bt

On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:57 AM, Mylesaudio at aol.com wrote:

> Last night's show was great all around, but I was sad to see it so  
> sparsely
> attended. One of the world's greatest improvising/ extended  
> technique sax
> players, with the cream of the crop local players, in a beautiful,  
> great-sounding
> and comfortable setting. Where were all you people? Maybe you're all  
> coming
> tonight?? Get your lazy asses out the house and come hear some  
> beautiful music by
> local treasures Carla Kihlstedt and Fred Frith et. al.
>
> Myles
>
>
> **************
> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
> Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
>
> (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? 
> &amp;NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  6 12:58:23 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (Jon Raskin)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:58:23 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Sperryfest
In-Reply-To: <c4f.2d1921d6.357ae290@aol.com>
References: <c4f.2d1921d6.357ae290@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00f001c8c80f$aeba2ac0$5b64a8c0@HP28718835617>

Definitely bumed that I can't make this festival but Rova's got a gig in San
Jose at the Zero1 performing Jason Freeman's Flock.  So many great events
this weekend on both sides of the bay. 

-----Original Message-----
From: newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu
[mailto:newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu] On Behalf Of Mylesaudio at aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:57 AM
To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Sperryfest

Last night's show was great all around, but I was sad to see it so sparsely
attended. One of the world's greatest improvising/ extended technique sax
players, with the cream of the crop local players, in a beautiful,
great-sounding and comfortable setting. Where were all you people? Maybe
you're all coming tonight?? Get your lazy asses out the house and come hear
some beautiful music by local treasures Carla Kihlstedt and Fred Frith et.
al.

Myles


**************
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence"
on AOL Food.
      
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&amp;NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 13:55:44 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:55:44 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>

ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni - only
more artificial-sounding!

I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRLr1P_cNk&feature=related


On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:

> then there is always iband
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0VX74alwk&feature=related
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> >
> > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> >
> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially painful.
> >> Can
> >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> >>
> >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> >>
> >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all. It's
> >> more
> >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly this
> >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it worse.
> >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star Supernova
> >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Fri Jun  6 15:34:50 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:34:50 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] 21 Grand Benefit Art Sale Tonight
Message-ID: <A33002E9-5042-478A-9EBA-345054C5DA82@balancepointacoustics.com>

Just a reminder about that. I think it starts at 7 so there is time  
squeeze it before Sperryfest if you plan on going there.
There are always some nice artworks at reasonable prices there.

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From lx.rudis at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 18:36:52 2008
From: lx.rudis at gmail.com (lx rudis)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:36:52 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7272233a0806061836n28ab7f47id819ca2be48d7bd3@mail.gmail.com>

what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband to
perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
travel.

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni - only
> more artificial-sounding!
>
> I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRLr1P_cNk&feature=related
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > then there is always iband
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0VX74alwk&feature=related
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > >
> > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> painful.
> > >> Can
> > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > >>
> > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > >>
> > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
> It's
> > >> more
> > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly this
> > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it worse.
> > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> Supernova
> > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 21:16:56 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:16:56 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <7272233a0806061836n28ab7f47id819ca2be48d7bd3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806061836n28ab7f47id819ca2be48d7bd3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806062116i729a5a14x695dad0c4a409086@mail.gmail.com>

but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things, even
though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets are
on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much willing to
devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke at
it...
they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get such
predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.

k


On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:

> what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband to
> perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> travel.
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni - only
> > more artificial-sounding!
> >
> > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRLr1P_cNk&feature=related
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > then there is always iband
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0VX74alwk&feature=related
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> mattdavignon at gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> > painful.
> > > >> Can
> > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > > >>
> > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
> > It's
> > > >> more
> > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
> this
> > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it worse.
> > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> > Supernova
> > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From letucepry at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  6 21:47:54 2008
From: letucepry at yahoo.com (Ron Lettuce)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:47:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
Message-ID: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that you are trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if you try to circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset. Also, hooking up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much useless because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on programming, and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need to turn to hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the manufacturer download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of the I/O device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler...But you can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at the assembler level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things like "why can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to pay someone to write that in assembler, we can just?use high level code", this makes
 it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what language it's written in...
lettuce


----- Original Message ----
From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer

but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things, even
though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets are
on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much willing to
devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke at
it...
they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get such
predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.

k


On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:

> what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband to
> perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> travel.
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni - only
> > more artificial-sounding!
> >
> > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRLr1P_cNk&feature=related
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > then there is always iband
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0VX74alwk&feature=related
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> mattdavignon at gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> > painful.
> > > >> Can
> > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > > >>
> > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
> > It's
> > > >> more
> > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
> this
> > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it worse.
> > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> > Supernova
> > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 22:05:01 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 22:05:01 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806062205n2c26e656kc525cc6289835dd9@mail.gmail.com>

> then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler..

hardly seems worth the trouble, does it? once you're there, you might as
well write your own code (from scratch, without the hack)that does something
cooler. or am i wrong about this? i guess i offhandedly think of circuit
bending as such a physical demonstration of destroying the commercial
product, whereas hacking is more behind the scenes.

i guess i was using the term 'circuit bent' in a less specific way. i should
have said 'fuck with' instead of 'circuit bend'.

k

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that you are
> trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if you try to
> circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset. Also, hooking
> up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much useless
> because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on programming,
> and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need to turn to
> hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the manufacturer
> download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of the I/O
> device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler...But you
> can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at the assembler
> level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things like "why
> can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to pay someone
> to write that in assembler, we can just use high level code", this makes
>  it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what language
> it's written in...
> lettuce
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>
> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
> modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things, even
> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets
> are
> on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much willing
> to
> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke
> at
> it...
> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
> such
> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
>
> k
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband
> to
> > perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> > travel.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
> only
> > > more artificial-sounding!
> > >
> > > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > then there is always iband
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> > mattdavignon at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> > > painful.
> > > > >> Can
> > > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
> > > It's
> > > > >> more
> > > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
> > this
> > > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
> worse.
> > > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> > > Supernova
> > > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
>
>
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From djcypod at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 22:31:55 2008
From: djcypod at gmail.com (beau)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 22:31:55 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806062205n2c26e656kc525cc6289835dd9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806062205n2c26e656kc525cc6289835dd9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc5507fa0806062231rc3a8d8ev3134cc9ab18bb331@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like the guitar zeros figured out how to do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXSo8HjKV8E



On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:05 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com> wrote:
>> then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler..
>
> hardly seems worth the trouble, does it? once you're there, you might as
> well write your own code (from scratch, without the hack)that does something
> cooler. or am i wrong about this? i guess i offhandedly think of circuit
> bending as such a physical demonstration of destroying the commercial
> product, whereas hacking is more behind the scenes.
>
> i guess i was using the term 'circuit bent' in a less specific way. i should
> have said 'fuck with' instead of 'circuit bend'.
>
> k
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that you are
>> trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if you try to
>> circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset. Also, hooking
>> up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much useless
>> because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on programming,
>> and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need to turn to
>> hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the manufacturer
>> download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of the I/O
>> device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler...But you
>> can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at the assembler
>> level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things like "why
>> can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to pay someone
>> to write that in assembler, we can just use high level code", this makes
>>  it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what language
>> it's written in...
>> lettuce
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
>> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>>
>> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
>> modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things, even
>> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets
>> are
>> on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much willing
>> to
>> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke
>> at
>> it...
>> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
>> such
>> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
>>
>> k
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband
>> to
>> > perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
>> > travel.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
>> only
>> > > more artificial-sounding!
>> > >
>> > > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > then there is always iband
>> > > >
>> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
>> > mattdavignon at gmail.com
>> > > >
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
>> > > painful.
>> > > > >> Can
>> > > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
>> > > It's
>> > > > >> more
>> > > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
>> > this
>> > > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
>> worse.
>> > > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
>> > > Supernova
>> > > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> > > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> > > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>> > > > >>
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>> > > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> kristin miltner
>> audio professional
>> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>
>
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From letucepry at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  6 22:39:06 2008
From: letucepry at yahoo.com (Ron Lettuce)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 22:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
Message-ID: <266867.67990.qm@web50306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

>hardly seems worth the trouble, does it? once you're there, you might as
>well write your own code (from scratch, without the hack)that does something
>cooler. or am i wrong about this? 
Not necessarily, if you can get to the code, you can easily replace algorhythms to produce all sorts of wierd stuff while still keeping some of the functionality of the original...I believe that is also the goal of the "speak and say" type bends, it really wouldn't be fun if you just started to build your own speak and say, and by the way, it doesn't speak and say, it just makes bloops and bleeps, in some way it needs to keep some of the original function (or at least the spinning arrow)...
Also, sometimes it's easier than you would think, and you just need a tip off to find out that the thing is based on a unix os, and can be hooked up to an external computer through a usb port that's hidden under the battery...
>i guess i offhandedly think of circuit
>bending as such a physical demonstration of destroying the commercial
>product, whereas hacking is more behind the scenes.

The first thing I hacked (not that I've hacked much, and it really wasn't protected by anything) was Atari 400 States and Capitals, you can't imagine the feeling of subverting the dominant paridigm that it gave to my 10 year old mind to replace all of the state names with whatever I replaced them with (probably fart jokes, and the like), and the guy who made the Windoze boot screen...heck, isn't that destroying the corporate product??? And besides, if you get good at it, you can get a job working for a giant corporation making stuff just like what you were hacking...
lettuce



----- Original Message ----
From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 10:05:01 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer

> then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler..

hardly seems worth the trouble, does it? once you're there, you might as
well write your own code (from scratch, without the hack)that does something
cooler. or am i wrong about this? i guess i offhandedly think of circuit
bending as such a physical demonstration of destroying the commercial
product, whereas hacking is more behind the scenes.

i guess i was using the term 'circuit bent' in a less specific way. i should
have said 'fuck with' instead of 'circuit bend'.

k

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that you are
> trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if you try to
> circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset. Also, hooking
> up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much useless
> because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on programming,
> and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need to turn to
> hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the manufacturer
> download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of the I/O
> device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler...But you
> can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at the assembler
> level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things like "why
> can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to pay someone
> to write that in assembler, we can just use high level code", this makes
>? it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what language
> it's written in...
> lettuce
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>
> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
> modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things, even
> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets
> are
> on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much willing
> to
> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke
> at
> it...
> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
> such
> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
>
> k
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband
> to
> > perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> > travel.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
> only
> > > more artificial-sounding!
> > >
> > > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > then there is always iband
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> > mattdavignon at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> > > painful.
> > > > >> Can
> > > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
> > > It's
> > > > >> more
> > > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
> > this
> > > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
> worse.
> > > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> > > Supernova
> > > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
>
>
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From tim at perkis.com  Sat Jun  7 00:58:04 2008
From: tim at perkis.com (Tim Perkis)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:58:04 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <484A3F8C.6010806@perkis.com>

huh? has anyone actually done this, hacked the code in a current 
custom-chip production audio device? I can't imagine how one could do 
that, and I'd like to hear about it if they have

T


Ron Lettuce wrote:
> The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that you are trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if you try to circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset. Also, hooking up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much useless because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on programming, and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need to turn to hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the manufacturer download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of the I/O device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler...But you can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at the assembler level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things like "why can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to pay someone to write that in assembler, we can just use high level code", this makes
>  it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what language it's written in...
> lettuce
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>
> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
> modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things, even
> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets are
> on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much willing to
> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke at
> it...
> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get such
> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
>
> k
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband to
>> perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
>> travel.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni - only
>>> more artificial-sounding!
>>>
>>> I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLr1P_cNk&feature=related
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> then there is always iband
>>>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VX74alwk&feature=related
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>> in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
>>>>>           
>> mattdavignon at gmail.com
>>     
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
>>>>>>             
>>> painful.
>>>       
>>>>>> Can
>>>>>> the franchise bomb overnight?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
>>>>>>             
>>> It's
>>>       
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
>>>>>>             
>> this
>>     
>>>>>> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it worse.
>>>>>> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
>>>>>>             
>>> Supernova
>>>       
>>>>>> reality show a couple years ago.)
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   

From tim at perkis.com  Sat Jun  7 01:01:10 2008
From: tim at perkis.com (Tim Perkis)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:01:10 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <fc5507fa0806062231rc3a8d8ev3134cc9ab18bb331@mail.gmail.com>
References: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<ef1ad92c0806062205n2c26e656kc525cc6289835dd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806062231rc3a8d8ev3134cc9ab18bb331@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <484A4046.1020707@perkis.com>

thats not what they did -- he explains it in the video, they didn't 
modify anything, he wrote a max patch that responds to the unmodified 
data coming from the unmodified guitar

T


beau wrote:
> Looks like the guitar zeros figured out how to do it:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXSo8HjKV8E
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:05 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>>> then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler..
>>>       
>> hardly seems worth the trouble, does it? once you're there, you might as
>> well write your own code (from scratch, without the hack)that does something
>> cooler. or am i wrong about this? i guess i offhandedly think of circuit
>> bending as such a physical demonstration of destroying the commercial
>> product, whereas hacking is more behind the scenes.
>>
>> i guess i was using the term 'circuit bent' in a less specific way. i should
>> have said 'fuck with' instead of 'circuit bend'.
>>
>> k
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that you are
>>> trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if you try to
>>> circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset. Also, hooking
>>> up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much useless
>>> because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on programming,
>>> and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need to turn to
>>> hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the manufacturer
>>> download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of the I/O
>>> device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler...But you
>>> can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at the assembler
>>> level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things like "why
>>> can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to pay someone
>>> to write that in assembler, we can just use high level code", this makes
>>>  it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what language
>>> it's written in...
>>> lettuce
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
>>> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>>>
>>> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
>>> modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things, even
>>> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets
>>> are
>>> on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much willing
>>> to
>>> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke
>>> at
>>> it...
>>> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
>>> such
>>> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
>>>
>>> k
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband
>>>>         
>>> to
>>>       
>>>> perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
>>>>>           
>>> only
>>>       
>>>>> more artificial-sounding!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> then there is always iband
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
>>>>>>             
>>> wrote:
>>>       
>>>>>>> in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
>>>>>>>               
>>>> mattdavignon at gmail.com
>>>>         
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>> painful.
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>> Can
>>>>>>>> the franchise bomb overnight?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>> It's
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>> this
>>>>         
>>>>>>>> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
>>>>>>>>                 
>>> worse.
>>>       
>>>>>>>> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>> Supernova
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>> reality show a couple years ago.)
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>
>>> --
>>> kristin miltner
>>> audio professional
>>> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>
>>>       
>>
>> --
>> kristin miltner
>> audio professional
>> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>   

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  7 06:48:19 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?Sm9uIFJhc2tpbg==?=)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:48:19 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <484A4046.1020707@perkis.com>
References: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<ef1ad92c0806062205n2c26e656kc525cc6289835dd9@mail.gmail.com><fc5507fa0806062231rc3a8d8ev3134cc9ab18bb331@mail.gmail.com><484A4046.1020707@perkis.com>
Message-ID: <418123691-1212846512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1928348258-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

The age of max is upon us. Zero1 festival is realm of max.   

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Perkis <tim at perkis.com>

Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:01:10 
To:Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer


thats not what they did -- he explains it in the video, they didn't 
modify anything, he wrote a max patch that responds to the unmodified 
data coming from the unmodified guitar

T


beau wrote:
> Looks like the guitar zeros figured out how to do it:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXSo8HjKV8E
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:05 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>>> then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler..
>>>       
>> hardly seems worth the trouble, does it? once you're there, you might as
>> well write your own code (from scratch, without the hack)that does something
>> cooler. or am i wrong about this? i guess i offhandedly think of circuit
>> bending as such a physical demonstration of destroying the commercial
>> product, whereas hacking is more behind the scenes.
>>
>> i guess i was using the term 'circuit bent' in a less specific way. i should
>> have said 'fuck with' instead of 'circuit bend'.
>>
>> k
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that you are
>>> trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if you try to
>>> circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset. Also, hooking
>>> up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much useless
>>> because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on programming,
>>> and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need to turn to
>>> hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the manufacturer
>>> download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of the I/O
>>> device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler...But you
>>> can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at the assembler
>>> level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things like "why
>>> can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to pay someone
>>> to write that in assembler, we can just use high level code", this makes
>>>  it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what language
>>> it's written in...
>>> lettuce
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
>>> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>>>
>>> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
>>> modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things, even
>>> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets
>>> are
>>> on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much willing
>>> to
>>> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke
>>> at
>>> it...
>>> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
>>> such
>>> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
>>>
>>> k
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband
>>>>         
>>> to
>>>       
>>>> perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
>>>>>           
>>> only
>>>       
>>>>> more artificial-sounding!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> then there is always iband
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
>>>>>>             
>>> wrote:
>>>       
>>>>>>> in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
>>>>>>>               
>>>> mattdavignon at gmail.com
>>>>         
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>> painful.
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>> Can
>>>>>>>> the franchise bomb overnight?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>> It's
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>> this
>>>>         
>>>>>>>> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
>>>>>>>>                 
>>> worse.
>>>       
>>>>>>>> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>> Supernova
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>> reality show a couple years ago.)
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>
>>> --
>>> kristin miltner
>>> audio professional
>>> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>
>>>       
>>
>> --
>> kristin miltner
>> audio professional
>> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>   
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From djcypod at gmail.com  Sat Jun  7 10:02:39 2008
From: djcypod at gmail.com (beau)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:02:39 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Too many Skronkathon proposals
In-Reply-To: <AD638306-8441-4060-9702-34296ACD64BD@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806012223190.18084@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>
	<FC6836A7-9545-4162-AAEF-7E7A109D8784@balancepointacoustics.com>
	<867B19DE-934B-4D9B-ABE4-2928AF16DF4D@metatronpress.com>
	<AD638306-8441-4060-9702-34296ACD64BD@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <fc5507fa0806071002i77fc36baqb256fbf383795950@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to submit the new project "Mana" for consideration.

Mana is the ambient breaks collaboration of Michael Mantra and DJ
Cypod. Our mission is to promote World piece through conscious music.

We would be happy to perform at the skronkathon waiting list or
alterna-skronk some time this summer?


www.michaelmantra.com
www.cypod.co.nr

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Matthew Goodheart
<matthew at matthewgoodheart.com> wrote:
> How about the SkrontAltAthon?
>
> On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:53 PM, Tom Bickley wrote:
>
>> Maybe it's time for a Skronkathon Fringe? ;-) -Tom
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've never had to say this before, but the Skronkathon is completely
>>>> booked up.  I have 20 proposals in hand and that's all we can
>>>> reasonably
>>>> accomodate.  Now, usually two or three will cancel (and once or
>>>> twice
>>>> we've had a no-show) so I guess we should have a waiting list.
>>>> With that
>>>> in mind, feel free to keep sending proposals to td at pixar.com.
>>>>
>>>> Also, mail to damon at balancepointacoustics.com is bouncing.  Damon:
>>>> you're on the program, but you need to send me more detailed
>>>> information
>>>> ASAP so I can get publicity releases together.  (Who are you
>>>> planning to
>>>> play with?  Solo?)
>>>>
>>>> Here's the bounce report.  As far as I can tell it means that
>>>> Damon's ISP
>>>> hates me for not jumping through some unspecified hoop:
>>>>
>>>> The following message to <damon at balancepointacoustics.com> was
>>>> undeliverable.
>>>> The reason for the problem:
>>>> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Verification failed for
>>>> <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout
>>>> verification
>>>> failure\nSender verify failed'
>>>>
>>>>    [ Part 2: "Delivery Status" ]
>>>>
>>>> Reporting-MTA: dns; emx.pixar.com
>>>>
>>>> Final-Recipient: rfc822;damon at balancepointacoustics.com
>>>> Action: failed
>>>> Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)
>>>> Remote-MTA: dns; [67.15.16.13]
>>>> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error
>>>> 550-'Verification
>>>> failed
>>>> for <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout
>>>> verification
>>>> failure\nSender verify failed' (delivery attempts: 0)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tom Duff.  BTW, I considered just mailing Loren directly.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>
>>> Damon Smith
>>>
>>> http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
>>> http://myspace.com/smithdamon
>>> New solo project:
>>> http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> Matthew Goodheart
> composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
> matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
> http://matthewgoodheart.com
> http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From bthrew at gmail.com  Sat Jun  7 11:07:16 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:07:16 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Too many Skronkathon proposals
In-Reply-To: <fc5507fa0806071002i77fc36baqb256fbf383795950@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806012223190.18084@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>
	<FC6836A7-9545-4162-AAEF-7E7A109D8784@balancepointacoustics.com>
	<867B19DE-934B-4D9B-ABE4-2928AF16DF4D@metatronpress.com>
	<AD638306-8441-4060-9702-34296ACD64BD@matthewgoodheart.com>
	<fc5507fa0806071002i77fc36baqb256fbf383795950@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BD14F7BA-BC39-43F4-AB6E-182656A5A6C6@gmail.com>

I vote Skronkapalooza.

On Jun 7, 2008, at 10:02 AM, beau wrote:

> alterna-skronk


From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Sat Jun  7 11:24:38 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:24:38 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <484A4046.1020707@perkis.com>
References: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806062205n2c26e656kc525cc6289835dd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806062231rc3a8d8ev3134cc9ab18bb331@mail.gmail.com>
	<484A4046.1020707@perkis.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806071124q455b4eecs82ee1f0c20a18985@mail.gmail.com>

>he wrote a max patch that responds to the unmodified
>data coming from the unmodified guitar

right. i want to see someone actually hack this controller. but i suppose
you're 'virtually' doing it by at least getting the thing to output the raw
data and then using that....

guitar hero is the most musically unintuitive music game i've ever played.
if i actually listen to the music, i fail the level, but if i totally tune
it out, and concentrate on syncing my hits to the flashy lights, i do o.k.
bleh.

k

On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Tim Perkis <tim at perkis.com> wrote:

> thats not what they did -- he explains it in the video, they didn't
> modify anything, he wrote a max patch that responds to the unmodified
> data coming from the unmodified guitar
>
> T
>
>
> beau wrote:
> > Looks like the guitar zeros figured out how to do it:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXSo8HjKV8E
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:05 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>> then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler..
> >>>
> >> hardly seems worth the trouble, does it? once you're there, you might as
> >> well write your own code (from scratch, without the hack)that does
> something
> >> cooler. or am i wrong about this? i guess i offhandedly think of circuit
> >> bending as such a physical demonstration of destroying the commercial
> >> product, whereas hacking is more behind the scenes.
> >>
> >> i guess i was using the term 'circuit bent' in a less specific way. i
> should
> >> have said 'fuck with' instead of 'circuit bend'.
> >>
> >> k
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that you are
> >>> trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if you try
> to
> >>> circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset. Also,
> hooking
> >>> up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much
> useless
> >>> because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on
> programming,
> >>> and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need to turn
> to
> >>> hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the manufacturer
> >>> download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of the
> I/O
> >>> device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the
> assembler...But you
> >>> can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at the
> assembler
> >>> level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things like
> "why
> >>> can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to pay
> someone
> >>> to write that in assembler, we can just use high level code", this
> makes
> >>>  it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what
> language
> >>> it's written in...
> >>> lettuce
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> >>> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> >>> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
> >>>
> >>> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
> >>> modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these things,
> even
> >>> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample
> sets
> >>> are
> >>> on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much
> willing
> >>> to
> >>> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you
> poke
> >>> at
> >>> it...
> >>> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
> >>> such
> >>> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
> >>>
> >>> k
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow
> iband
> >>>>
> >>> to
> >>>
> >>>> perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> >>>> travel.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
> >>>>>
> >>> only
> >>>
> >>>>> more artificial-sounding!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few
> minutes
> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> then there is always iband
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>>> in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> mattdavignon at gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>> painful.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Can
> >>>>>>>> the franchise bomb overnight?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>> It's
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> this
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
> >>>>>>>>
> >>> worse.
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>> Supernova
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> reality show a couple years ago.)
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >>>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >>>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> kristin miltner
> >>> audio professional
> >>> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> kristin miltner
> >> audio professional
> >> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From lx.rudis at gmail.com  Sat Jun  7 15:26:05 2008
From: lx.rudis at gmail.com (lx rudis)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:26:05 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806062116i729a5a14x695dad0c4a409086@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806061836n28ab7f47id819ca2be48d7bd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806062116i729a5a14x695dad0c4a409086@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7272233a0806071526w14453733h2cb8e9d01b451d71@mail.gmail.com>

jesus, this thread picked up a hell of a head of steam as soon as i left for
dinner...and then i was so spaced out i had to wait till today to edit my
ramblings.  and i still make no sense.  oh well.  sigh.  here goes...

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:16 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
wrote:

> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
> modify accoridng to what you specify


imvho, yes.

although the question that pops to my mind is 'what do we want to change,
and why?'

in the case of an iphone, most of what i might 'want' is accessible, it just
would require some serious work to access it:
http://developer.apple.com/iphone/
...at the end of that serious work, perhaps i'd be able to make a bit of
money.
or get hired.  but i digress.  ;)

in the case of the DS, electroplankton is ok, but i find the ds10 from korg
far more interesting, and there's underground stuff out there already...
http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2006/11/nintendo-ds-hacked-into-cool-wireless.html
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/04/11/nintendo-ds-as-hardware-step-sequencer/

...of note to me is that it's wifi.  i can synchronise several sequencers
with no quaint old MIDI cables involved, and that feature alone points
toward a more fluid sort of interaction between performers.

the low cost of the DS [esp compared to tenori-on] also plays into this.
it's as cheap as an entry level electric guitar, therefore more people can
justify cost of entry.  ...and also, emotionally approach their creativity
from a more 'fun' space - it's not expensive, therefore it's not work.  but
i'm digressing...again...

<digress>
ack, might as well commit this digression as well:
just because something looks like a piano keyboard doesn't mean it has to be
played tonally.
likewise with a fretboard.
or even a copy of electroplankton - already being 'misused' as a 'proper'
musical instrument...
      <digress>
i'll go back to teh post, but when i think of iband, i don't consider them
to be an end-result.
more like an early attempt.
others will follow.
me, perhaps...but if i do so, how will i keep my work compelling, of
potential interest to an audience?
     </digress>
</digress>

-- it seems like these things, even
> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets
> are
>
>
well, lettuce and perkis addressed this a lot better than i would have.   i
better take a different tack.
i believe these machines are powerful enough to perform some realtime
synthesis functions, and that there's also the oldschool digital notion of
processing things outside of realtime, then auditioning the results.

what i'm saying here is if there's a will, there's a way.
we just have to be willing to adapt our wishes [appropriately] to the tools
at hand, then exploit those tools.
relentlessly, but responsibly.  ...and imvho goals help as well.

but again, sigh, i'm digressing.

what a provocative post you've made!
arrrgh, this is frustrating....on to the next point.

> on them, are less able to be circuitbent.

i wouldn't bother circuitbending something like an iphone.

i might choose to hack into the firmware on a DS, but even that feels
remote...that's just me.

i like the aesthetic of cracking into something 'obsolete' and giving it new
life, or something.  restating it.

in the case of the instruments iband is using - these are still being
explored by developers, so imvho they're already plenty alive enough.
but in my experiences with new machines and new SW tools, bellwether devwork
is already close to the aesthetic of circuitbending.  ...if their SDK is
like others i've used [ahem, and you as well], there's plenty of hacking and
experimenting involved in simply making things work as advertised.

no need to go further and void warranties when the toolset itself is already
'broken'... :D

producers are very much willing to
> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke
> at
> it...


but these [virtual piano and virtual fretboard] are just quick expressions
of what can be done with the SDK.

you've got a wifi capable computer there, with ability to record and
playback audio.  it's got a multi-touch interface, a beautiful display you
can put most anything on, and even accelerometers - admittedly, working with
the thing wouldn't be as fast as one of the radioshack experimenter kits,
but heck - if i wanted some sort of metasynth-ish app that let me filter and
pitchbend sounds based on how i tilt and shake the iphone, i can have that.
i just have to make it, that's all. :)

the DS has its own interface features, and can be written to as well.  not
saying it'd be easy or fun, and i hate using this cop-out phrase, but 'your
imagination is the only limit'.  if you really want something special out of
either of these devices, the tools are there to do it.  don't forget there's
also the possibility of hacking something _else_, then communicating with
the iphone or DS using bluetooth or wifi.   combine a hands-free device with
a GPS device.  monitor your house, use that to seed microsequences.  monitor
the pet, use that data...
http://www.art.nus.edu.sg/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=60


> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
such

> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.


this is profound, i think.

...but  i'm always cautious about generalizations.  you said:

for every 99 people who want to walk in lockstep, there's one who doesn't.
lists like ours here speak to that 01%, and should be recognized as such - i
don't think our job is to invoke a culture of superhackers, but i don't
think our job is to silo ourselves, never seen, never heard by a larger
audience.

iband speaks to that sorta lame culture out there, but i think it points
toward acceptance of larger ideas.  those larger ideas may not take the
shape we wish, but will have the spirit of adventure which we desire.  if
we've got a job in relation to something like iband, i'd say it's to observe
and note whether or not they have any social impact that would


>
>
> k
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband
> to
> > perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> > travel.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
> only
> > > more artificial-sounding!
> > >
> > > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRLr1P_cNk&feature=related
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > then there is always iband
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0VX74alwk&feature=related
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> > mattdavignon at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> > > painful.
> > > > >> Can
> > > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
> > > It's
> > > > >> more
> > > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
> > this
> > > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
> worse.
> > > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> > > Supernova
> > > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
>
>
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From letucepry at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  7 18:19:09 2008
From: letucepry at yahoo.com (Ron Lettuce)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:19:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
Message-ID: <407079.77888.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

BTW, If anyone wants to form a group and try to hack any specific piece of equipment (understanding that the rules of circuit bending apply...void warrantee, could kill device...etc.), I think that would CERTAINLY work better than trying it yourself...or myself...and, it might be fun...
lettuce

----- Original Message ----
From: lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 7, 2008 3:26:05 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer

jesus, this thread picked up a hell of a head of steam as soon as i left for
dinner...and then i was so spaced out i had to wait till today to edit my
ramblings.? and i still make no sense.? oh well.? sigh.? here goes...

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:16 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
wrote:

> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
> modify accoridng to what you specify


imvho, yes.

although the question that pops to my mind is 'what do we want to change,
and why?'

in the case of an iphone, most of what i might 'want' is accessible, it just
would require some serious work to access it:
http://developer.apple.com/iphone/
...at the end of that serious work, perhaps i'd be able to make a bit of
money.
or get hired.? but i digress.? ;)

in the case of the DS, electroplankton is ok, but i find the ds10 from korg
far more interesting, and there's underground stuff out there already...
http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2006/11/nintendo-ds-hacked-into-cool-wireless.html
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/04/11/nintendo-ds-as-hardware-step-sequencer/

...of note to me is that it's wifi.? i can synchronise several sequencers
with no quaint old MIDI cables involved, and that feature alone points
toward a more fluid sort of interaction between performers.

the low cost of the DS [esp compared to tenori-on] also plays into this.
it's as cheap as an entry level electric guitar, therefore more people can
justify cost of entry.? ...and also, emotionally approach their creativity
from a more 'fun' space - it's not expensive, therefore it's not work.? but
i'm digressing...again...

<digress>
ack, might as well commit this digression as well:
just because something looks like a piano keyboard doesn't mean it has to be
played tonally.
likewise with a fretboard.
or even a copy of electroplankton - already being 'misused' as a 'proper'
musical instrument...
? ? ? <digress>
i'll go back to teh post, but when i think of iband, i don't consider them
to be an end-result.
more like an early attempt.
others will follow.
me, perhaps...but if i do so, how will i keep my work compelling, of
potential interest to an audience?
? ? </digress>
</digress>

-- it seems like these things, even
> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets
> are
>
>
well, lettuce and perkis addressed this a lot better than i would have.? i
better take a different tack.
i believe these machines are powerful enough to perform some realtime
synthesis functions, and that there's also the oldschool digital notion of
processing things outside of realtime, then auditioning the results.

what i'm saying here is if there's a will, there's a way.
we just have to be willing to adapt our wishes [appropriately] to the tools
at hand, then exploit those tools.
relentlessly, but responsibly.? ...and imvho goals help as well.

but again, sigh, i'm digressing.

what a provocative post you've made!
arrrgh, this is frustrating....on to the next point.

> on them, are less able to be circuitbent.

i wouldn't bother circuitbending something like an iphone.

i might choose to hack into the firmware on a DS, but even that feels
remote...that's just me.

i like the aesthetic of cracking into something 'obsolete' and giving it new
life, or something.? restating it.

in the case of the instruments iband is using - these are still being
explored by developers, so imvho they're already plenty alive enough.
but in my experiences with new machines and new SW tools, bellwether devwork
is already close to the aesthetic of circuitbending.? ...if their SDK is
like others i've used [ahem, and you as well], there's plenty of hacking and
experimenting involved in simply making things work as advertised.

no need to go further and void warranties when the toolset itself is already
'broken'... :D

producers are very much willing to
> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke
> at
> it...


but these [virtual piano and virtual fretboard] are just quick expressions
of what can be done with the SDK.

you've got a wifi capable computer there, with ability to record and
playback audio.? it's got a multi-touch interface, a beautiful display you
can put most anything on, and even accelerometers - admittedly, working with
the thing wouldn't be as fast as one of the radioshack experimenter kits,
but heck - if i wanted some sort of metasynth-ish app that let me filter and
pitchbend sounds based on how i tilt and shake the iphone, i can have that.
i just have to make it, that's all. :)

the DS has its own interface features, and can be written to as well.? not
saying it'd be easy or fun, and i hate using this cop-out phrase, but 'your
imagination is the only limit'.? if you really want something special out of
either of these devices, the tools are there to do it.? don't forget there's
also the possibility of hacking something _else_, then communicating with
the iphone or DS using bluetooth or wifi.? combine a hands-free device with
a GPS device.? monitor your house, use that to seed microsequences.? monitor
the pet, use that data...
http://www.art.nus.edu.sg/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=60


> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
such

> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.


this is profound, i think.

...but? i'm always cautious about generalizations.? you said:

for every 99 people who want to walk in lockstep, there's one who doesn't.
lists like ours here speak to that 01%, and should be recognized as such - i
don't think our job is to invoke a culture of superhackers, but i don't
think our job is to silo ourselves, never seen, never heard by a larger
audience.

iband speaks to that sorta lame culture out there, but i think it points
toward acceptance of larger ideas.? those larger ideas may not take the
shape we wish, but will have the spirit of adventure which we desire.? if
we've got a job in relation to something like iband, i'd say it's to observe
and note whether or not they have any social impact that would


>
>
> k
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband
> to
> > perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> > travel.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
> only
> > > more artificial-sounding!
> > >
> > > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few minutes
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRLr1P_cNk&feature=related
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > then there is always iband
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0VX74alwk&feature=related
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> > mattdavignon at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> > > painful.
> > > > >> Can
> > > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at all.
> > > It's
> > > > >> more
> > > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then suddenly
> > this
> > > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
> worse.
> > > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> > > Supernova
> > > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
>
>
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Sat Jun  7 18:45:15 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:45:15 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <407079.77888.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <407079.77888.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806071845r663cd974q8af16c492cd5eee9@mail.gmail.com>

hey that's a really cool idea! we gotta find something we're willing to
sacrifice...let me think on it,

On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com> wrote:

> BTW, If anyone wants to form a group and try to hack any specific piece of
> equipment (understanding that the rules of circuit bending apply...void
> warrantee, could kill device...etc.), I think that would CERTAINLY work
> better than trying it yourself...or myself...and, it might be fun...
> lettuce
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, June 7, 2008 3:26:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>
> jesus, this thread picked up a hell of a head of steam as soon as i left
> for
> dinner...and then i was so spaced out i had to wait till today to edit my
> ramblings.  and i still make no sense.  oh well.  sigh.  here goes...
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:16 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
> > modify accoridng to what you specify
>
>
> imvho, yes.
>
> although the question that pops to my mind is 'what do we want to change,
> and why?'
>
> in the case of an iphone, most of what i might 'want' is accessible, it
> just
> would require some serious work to access it:
> http://developer.apple.com/iphone/
> ...at the end of that serious work, perhaps i'd be able to make a bit of
> money.
> or get hired.  but i digress.  ;)
>
> in the case of the DS, electroplankton is ok, but i find the ds10 from korg
> far more interesting, and there's underground stuff out there already...
>
> http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2006/11/nintendo-ds-hacked-into-cool-wireless.html
>
> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/04/11/nintendo-ds-as-hardware-step-sequencer/
>
> ...of note to me is that it's wifi.  i can synchronise several sequencers
> with no quaint old MIDI cables involved, and that feature alone points
> toward a more fluid sort of interaction between performers.
>
> the low cost of the DS [esp compared to tenori-on] also plays into this.
> it's as cheap as an entry level electric guitar, therefore more people can
> justify cost of entry.  ...and also, emotionally approach their creativity
> from a more 'fun' space - it's not expensive, therefore it's not work.  but
> i'm digressing...again...
>
> <digress>
> ack, might as well commit this digression as well:
> just because something looks like a piano keyboard doesn't mean it has to
> be
> played tonally.
> likewise with a fretboard.
> or even a copy of electroplankton - already being 'misused' as a 'proper'
> musical instrument...
>       <digress>
> i'll go back to teh post, but when i think of iband, i don't consider them
> to be an end-result.
> more like an early attempt.
> others will follow.
> me, perhaps...but if i do so, how will i keep my work compelling, of
> potential interest to an audience?
>     </digress>
> </digress>
>
> -- it seems like these things, even
> > though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample sets
> > are
> >
> >
> well, lettuce and perkis addressed this a lot better than i would have.  i
> better take a different tack.
> i believe these machines are powerful enough to perform some realtime
> synthesis functions, and that there's also the oldschool digital notion of
> processing things outside of realtime, then auditioning the results.
>
> what i'm saying here is if there's a will, there's a way.
> we just have to be willing to adapt our wishes [appropriately] to the tools
> at hand, then exploit those tools.
> relentlessly, but responsibly.  ...and imvho goals help as well.
>
> but again, sigh, i'm digressing.
>
> what a provocative post you've made!
> arrrgh, this is frustrating....on to the next point.
>
> > on them, are less able to be circuitbent.
>
> i wouldn't bother circuitbending something like an iphone.
>
> i might choose to hack into the firmware on a DS, but even that feels
> remote...that's just me.
>
> i like the aesthetic of cracking into something 'obsolete' and giving it
> new
> life, or something.  restating it.
>
> in the case of the instruments iband is using - these are still being
> explored by developers, so imvho they're already plenty alive enough.
> but in my experiences with new machines and new SW tools, bellwether
> devwork
> is already close to the aesthetic of circuitbending.  ...if their SDK is
> like others i've used [ahem, and you as well], there's plenty of hacking
> and
> experimenting involved in simply making things work as advertised.
>
> no need to go further and void warranties when the toolset itself is
> already
> 'broken'... :D
>
> producers are very much willing to
> > devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you poke
> > at
> > it...
>
>
> but these [virtual piano and virtual fretboard] are just quick expressions
> of what can be done with the SDK.
>
> you've got a wifi capable computer there, with ability to record and
> playback audio.  it's got a multi-touch interface, a beautiful display you
> can put most anything on, and even accelerometers - admittedly, working
> with
> the thing wouldn't be as fast as one of the radioshack experimenter kits,
> but heck - if i wanted some sort of metasynth-ish app that let me filter
> and
> pitchbend sounds based on how i tilt and shake the iphone, i can have that.
> i just have to make it, that's all. :)
>
> the DS has its own interface features, and can be written to as well.  not
> saying it'd be easy or fun, and i hate using this cop-out phrase, but 'your
> imagination is the only limit'.  if you really want something special out
> of
> either of these devices, the tools are there to do it.  don't forget
> there's
> also the possibility of hacking something _else_, then communicating with
> the iphone or DS using bluetooth or wifi.  combine a hands-free device with
> a GPS device.  monitor your house, use that to seed microsequences.
> monitor
> the pet, use that data...
> http://www.art.nus.edu.sg/index.php?optioncom_content&taskview&id&&Itemid`<http://www.art.nus.edu.sg/index.php?optioncom_content&taskview&id&&Itemid%60>
>
>
> > they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
> such
>
> > predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
>
>
> this is profound, i think.
>
> ...but  i'm always cautious about generalizations.  you said:
>
> for every 99 people who want to walk in lockstep, there's one who doesn't.
> lists like ours here speak to that 01%, and should be recognized as such -
> i
> don't think our job is to invoke a culture of superhackers, but i don't
> think our job is to silo ourselves, never seen, never heard by a larger
> audience.
>
> iband speaks to that sorta lame culture out there, but i think it points
> toward acceptance of larger ideas.  those larger ideas may not take the
> shape we wish, but will have the spirit of adventure which we desire.  if
> we've got a job in relation to something like iband, i'd say it's to
> observe
> and note whether or not they have any social impact that would
>
>
> >
> >
> > k
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow iband
> > to
> > > perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> > > travel.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni -
> > only
> > > > more artificial-sounding!
> > > >
> > > > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few
> minutes
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > then there is always iband
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> > > mattdavignon at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is especially
> > > > painful.
> > > > > >> Can
> > > > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at
> all.
> > > > It's
> > > > > >> more
> > > > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then
> suddenly
> > > this
> > > > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
> > worse.
> > > > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> > > > Supernova
> > > > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > kristin miltner
> > audio professional
> > www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From lx.rudis at gmail.com  Sat Jun  7 19:19:08 2008
From: lx.rudis at gmail.com (lx rudis)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:19:08 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806071845r663cd974q8af16c492cd5eee9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <407079.77888.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806071845r663cd974q8af16c492cd5eee9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7272233a0806071919k37ed9b91y4dc14b0e0f629faa@mail.gmail.com>

arrgh, that's what i get for posting whilst sleep deprived.

lx kool hyperstack opined:
"...if we've got a job in relation to something like iband, i'd say it's to
observe and note whether or not they have any social impact that would..."

..yeah, exactly _what_, alex?

social impact which would validate a similar excursion on part of
experimental artistes such as ourselves, of course.

...which is exactly what's currently in play out there, it gets little press
because lindsay lohan hasn't picked up a soldering iron yet.  at least not
for modifying an sk-1...
here's a link to many circuitbending resources:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/printview.php?t=147731&start=360

i like the idea of circuit _building_, and my current fave toy is the Radio
Shack Sensors Lab.  my time's quite limited, so i don't know that i'm of
much use here...






On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 6:45 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
wrote:

> hey that's a really cool idea! we gotta find something we're willing to
> sacrifice...let me think on it,
>
> On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > BTW, If anyone wants to form a group and try to hack any specific piece
> of
> > equipment (understanding that the rules of circuit bending apply...void
> > warrantee, could kill device...etc.), I think that would CERTAINLY work
> > better than trying it yourself...or myself...and, it might be fun...
> > lettuce
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> > To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 7, 2008 3:26:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
> >
> > jesus, this thread picked up a hell of a head of steam as soon as i left
> > for
> > dinner...and then i was so spaced out i had to wait till today to edit my
> > ramblings.  and i still make no sense.  oh well.  sigh.  here goes...
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:16 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to crack and
> > > modify accoridng to what you specify
> >
> >
> > imvho, yes.
> >
> > although the question that pops to my mind is 'what do we want to change,
> > and why?'
> >
> > in the case of an iphone, most of what i might 'want' is accessible, it
> > just
> > would require some serious work to access it:
> > http://developer.apple.com/iphone/
> > ...at the end of that serious work, perhaps i'd be able to make a bit of
> > money.
> > or get hired.  but i digress.  ;)
> >
> > in the case of the DS, electroplankton is ok, but i find the ds10 from
> korg
> > far more interesting, and there's underground stuff out there already...
> >
> >
> http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2006/11/nintendo-ds-hacked-into-cool-wireless.html
> >
> >
> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/04/11/nintendo-ds-as-hardware-step-sequencer/
> >
> > ...of note to me is that it's wifi.  i can synchronise several sequencers
> > with no quaint old MIDI cables involved, and that feature alone points
> > toward a more fluid sort of interaction between performers.
> >
> > the low cost of the DS [esp compared to tenori-on] also plays into this.
> > it's as cheap as an entry level electric guitar, therefore more people
> can
> > justify cost of entry.  ...and also, emotionally approach their
> creativity
> > from a more 'fun' space - it's not expensive, therefore it's not work.
>  but
> > i'm digressing...again...
> >
> > <digress>
> > ack, might as well commit this digression as well:
> > just because something looks like a piano keyboard doesn't mean it has to
> > be
> > played tonally.
> > likewise with a fretboard.
> > or even a copy of electroplankton - already being 'misused' as a 'proper'
> > musical instrument...
> >       <digress>
> > i'll go back to teh post, but when i think of iband, i don't consider
> them
> > to be an end-result.
> > more like an early attempt.
> > others will follow.
> > me, perhaps...but if i do so, how will i keep my work compelling, of
> > potential interest to an audience?
> >     </digress>
> > </digress>
> >
> > -- it seems like these things, even
> > > though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good sample
> sets
> > > are
> > >
> > >
> > well, lettuce and perkis addressed this a lot better than i would have.
>  i
> > better take a different tack.
> > i believe these machines are powerful enough to perform some realtime
> > synthesis functions, and that there's also the oldschool digital notion
> of
> > processing things outside of realtime, then auditioning the results.
> >
> > what i'm saying here is if there's a will, there's a way.
> > we just have to be willing to adapt our wishes [appropriately] to the
> tools
> > at hand, then exploit those tools.
> > relentlessly, but responsibly.  ...and imvho goals help as well.
> >
> > but again, sigh, i'm digressing.
> >
> > what a provocative post you've made!
> > arrrgh, this is frustrating....on to the next point.
> >
> > > on them, are less able to be circuitbent.
> >
> > i wouldn't bother circuitbending something like an iphone.
> >
> > i might choose to hack into the firmware on a DS, but even that feels
> > remote...that's just me.
> >
> > i like the aesthetic of cracking into something 'obsolete' and giving it
> > new
> > life, or something.  restating it.
> >
> > in the case of the instruments iband is using - these are still being
> > explored by developers, so imvho they're already plenty alive enough.
> > but in my experiences with new machines and new SW tools, bellwether
> > devwork
> > is already close to the aesthetic of circuitbending.  ...if their SDK is
> > like others i've used [ahem, and you as well], there's plenty of hacking
> > and
> > experimenting involved in simply making things work as advertised.
> >
> > no need to go further and void warranties when the toolset itself is
> > already
> > 'broken'... :D
> >
> > producers are very much willing to
> > > devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how you
> poke
> > > at
> > > it...
> >
> >
> > but these [virtual piano and virtual fretboard] are just quick
> expressions
> > of what can be done with the SDK.
> >
> > you've got a wifi capable computer there, with ability to record and
> > playback audio.  it's got a multi-touch interface, a beautiful display
> you
> > can put most anything on, and even accelerometers - admittedly, working
> > with
> > the thing wouldn't be as fast as one of the radioshack experimenter kits,
> > but heck - if i wanted some sort of metasynth-ish app that let me filter
> > and
> > pitchbend sounds based on how i tilt and shake the iphone, i can have
> that.
> > i just have to make it, that's all. :)
> >
> > the DS has its own interface features, and can be written to as well.
>  not
> > saying it'd be easy or fun, and i hate using this cop-out phrase, but
> 'your
> > imagination is the only limit'.  if you really want something special out
> > of
> > either of these devices, the tools are there to do it.  don't forget
> > there's
> > also the possibility of hacking something _else_, then communicating with
> > the iphone or DS using bluetooth or wifi.  combine a hands-free device
> with
> > a GPS device.  monitor your house, use that to seed microsequences.
> > monitor
> > the pet, use that data...
> >
> http://www.art.nus.edu.sg/index.php?optioncom_content&taskview&id&&Itemid`<http://www.art.nus.edu.sg/index.php?optioncom_content&taskview&id&&Itemid%60>
> <
> http://www.art.nus.edu.sg/index.php?optioncom_content&taskview&id&&Itemid%60
> >
> >
> >
> > > they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them, you get
> > such
> >
> > > predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
> >
> >
> > this is profound, i think.
> >
> > ...but  i'm always cautious about generalizations.  you said:
> >
> > for every 99 people who want to walk in lockstep, there's one who
> doesn't.
> > lists like ours here speak to that 01%, and should be recognized as such
> -
> > i
> > don't think our job is to invoke a culture of superhackers, but i don't
> > think our job is to silo ourselves, never seen, never heard by a larger
> > audience.
> >
> > iband speaks to that sorta lame culture out there, but i think it points
> > toward acceptance of larger ideas.  those larger ideas may not take the
> > shape we wish, but will have the spirit of adventure which we desire.  if
> > we've got a job in relation to something like iband, i'd say it's to
> > observe
> > and note whether or not they have any social impact that would
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > k
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices allow
> iband
> > > to
> > > > perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they choose to
> > > > travel.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <
> mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches Yanni
> -
> > > only
> > > > > more artificial-sounding!
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few
> > minutes
> > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > then there is always iband
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
> > > > mattdavignon at gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is
> especially
> > > > > painful.
> > > > > > >> Can
> > > > > > >> the franchise bomb overnight?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun at
> > all.
> > > > > It's
> > > > > > >> more
> > > > > > >> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then
> > suddenly
> > > > this
> > > > > > >> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
> > > worse.
> > > > > > >> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
> > > > > Supernova
> > > > > > >> reality show a couple years ago.)
> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > kristin miltner
> > > audio professional
> > > www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
>
>
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From bthrew at gmail.com  Sun Jun  8 12:40:51 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 12:40:51 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <418123691-1212846512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1928348258-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <931697.47010.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<ef1ad92c0806062205n2c26e656kc525cc6289835dd9@mail.gmail.com><fc5507fa0806062231rc3a8d8ev3134cc9ab18bb331@mail.gmail.com><484A4046.1020707@perkis.com>
	<418123691-1212846512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1928348258-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <CE8C798E-D4D6-4866-B31C-7900F311D5F1@gmail.com>

It has been for 20 years.

bt

On Jun 7, 2008, at 6:48 AM, Jon Raskin wrote:

> The age of max is upon us. Zero1 festival is realm of max.
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Perkis <tim at perkis.com>
>
> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:01:10
> To:Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>
>
> thats not what they did -- he explains it in the video, they didn't
> modify anything, he wrote a max patch that responds to the unmodified
> data coming from the unmodified guitar
>
> T
>
>
> beau wrote:
>> Looks like the guitar zeros figured out how to do it:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXSo8HjKV8E
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:05 PM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> then spend the rest of your life decoding the assembler..
>>>>
>>> hardly seems worth the trouble, does it? once you're there, you  
>>> might as
>>> well write your own code (from scratch, without the hack)that does  
>>> something
>>> cooler. or am i wrong about this? i guess i offhandedly think of  
>>> circuit
>>> bending as such a physical demonstration of destroying the  
>>> commercial
>>> product, whereas hacking is more behind the scenes.
>>>
>>> i guess i was using the term 'circuit bent' in a less specific  
>>> way. i should
>>> have said 'fuck with' instead of 'circuit bend'.
>>>
>>> k
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ron Lettuce <letucepry at yahoo.com>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The only reason they're harder to bend is that the circuit that  
>>>> you are
>>>> trying to bend is located inside of the microchip...Usually if  
>>>> you try to
>>>> circuit bend one of those, it will just burn out the chipset.  
>>>> Also, hooking
>>>> up analog devices such as capacitors and resistors is pretty much  
>>>> useless
>>>> because they are all digital now. But, they are all based on  
>>>> programming,
>>>> and the program needs to get into the chipset somehow, you need  
>>>> to turn to
>>>> hacking. If you know the chipset, you can always go to the  
>>>> manufacturer
>>>> download the chipset manual, find out how to dump the code out of  
>>>> the I/O
>>>> device and then spend the rest of your life decoding the  
>>>> assembler...But you
>>>> can look on the good side, less and less of these are coded at  
>>>> the assembler
>>>> level, and economics pushes company presidents to decide things  
>>>> like "why
>>>> can't we just use an off the shelf chip", and "I'm not going to  
>>>> pay someone
>>>> to write that in assembler, we can just use high level code",  
>>>> this makes
>>>> it much easier to use de-compilers on the code to find out what  
>>>> language
>>>> it's written in...
>>>> lettuce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 9:16:56 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
>>>>
>>>> but is it just me, or are these devices less and less able to  
>>>> crack and
>>>> modify accoridng to what you specify -- it seems like these  
>>>> things, even
>>>> though they are very accommodating in terms of how many good  
>>>> sample sets
>>>> are
>>>> on them, are less able to be circuitbent. producers are very much  
>>>> willing
>>>> to
>>>> devise an object that immediately sounds 'musical' no matter how  
>>>> you poke
>>>> at
>>>> it...
>>>> they've though of everything, and that's the trouble with them,  
>>>> you get
>>>> such
>>>> predetermined 'beauty' out of them, no one wants to learn anything.
>>>>
>>>> k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> what's powerful for me is that these computer-based devices  
>>>>> allow iband
>>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> perform nearly anywhere, with no gear to check should they  
>>>>> choose to
>>>>> travel.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com 
>>>>> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ooh - Iphones and Nintendo let us make music that approaches  
>>>>>> Yanni -
>>>>>>
>>>> only
>>>>
>>>>>> more artificial-sounding!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd pay more to see these guys, though probably only for a few  
>>>>>> minutes
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vJLRLr1P_cNk&featurerelated
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:32 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> then there is always iband
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?vMh0VX74alwk&featurerelated
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> in other DS notes, have you EM types seen this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.aqi.co.jp/product/ds10/en/index.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Matt Davignon <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> mattdavignon at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This trailer for "Guitar Hero" on the Nintendo DS is  
>>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> painful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can
>>>>>>>>> the franchise bomb overnight?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/222607.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First of all, the control scheme looks awkward and not fun  
>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> like walkman-scratching than actual guitar playing. Then  
>>>>>>>>> suddenly
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> this
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> embarrassing "rocker" poser comes out of nowhere and makes it
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> worse.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Actually the rocker looks like the guy who won the Rock Star
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Supernova
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> reality show a couple years ago.)
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> kristin miltner
>>>> audio professional
>>>> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> kristin miltner
>>> audio professional
>>> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From bthrew at gmail.com  Sun Jun  8 13:04:05 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (barry threw)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:04:05 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <55E95971-4E1D-49BE-B016-C6D3EDE39A3E@gmail.com>

I just saw Flock at Zero1 yesterday, and I would be interested to hear  
perspectives from the performers.

Me? I thought it was terrible. This was not the fault of the  
performers in any way whatsoever. Flock suffered from the primary sin  
of media art and interactive music; using interactivity as a crutch to  
justify the work.

For those who don't know about it, a description... Audience members  
wear lighted hats, that are tracked by a webcam on the ceiling. In a  
certain square on the floor, that also contains the performers, the  
positions of the audience members are notated for the performers.  All  
pretty standard stuff at this point. There is a playhead that loops  
across the x axis of the square, and the y axis is pitch...low to  
high. So, as the playhead intersects an audience position, the player  
sounds that note.

This is one of three basic modes for the piece, the other two still  
use the same basic time/pitch notational scheme. In the second mode,  
the positions of audience members make a trail of notes. In the third  
mode the playhead changes to being a kind of radar beacon radiating  
from the performers locations. As it crosses and audience member, that  
pitch is notated with proximity being mapped to pitch.

That is pretty much all there is to it, with the exception of there  
being sections where the performers play long tones with the same  
audience pitch relationships. There were two sections with added sound  
design elements, but they were extremely weak, could have just been  
general midi tones.

The problem is that compositionally, it fell flat. It tried to rely on  
these audience interactions to create meaningful patterns for it, but  
unfortunately this isn't enough to make a work that is compelling. As  
the name Flock suggests, any time you have a group of people walking  
aimlessly around the stage, you don't have audience interaction as  
much as a statistical blob, in which case, just use that to make your  
score.

It also violated another cardinal media art sin (from my perspective  
anyway) which is "If you have to explain the mechanics of your piece  
at the beginning, it is going to be bad." The whole thing was largely  
didactic. This might have been fun for audience members who are still  
all "Hurr...technology is awesome" but for anyone who has gotten OVER  
the fact that you can in fact make interactive works, and wants to see  
some actual aesthetically pleasing results, it was tiresome.

barry threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA
Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
Web: www.barrythrew.com


From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Sun Jun  8 16:14:41 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:14:41 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] PC laptop help
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806081614n2aeac839l82d9a7c9dc784563@mail.gmail.com>

hi all,

Could someone help me with a PC audio problem?

I'm trying to record on either of 2 pieces of software - either Adobe
Audition or Sony Vegas. Both are giving me the same trouble.

Even though I have my presonus Inspire set as the audio device, neither
program seems to be 'hearing' the audio in 'armed for record' mode.

If I try to record a sound, it will only "record" for about 1/10th of a
second, then it will stop and put an 0.10 second audio file in the project.
(In other words, it acts exactly as if I hit "stop" after a tenth of a
second.)

The same thing happens if I insert an existing sound file into an open
project and try to hit play. It will play then stop after a 10th of a
second.

Everything seemed to be working ok a few weeks ago with Adobe Audition. The
only thing that's changed since then is that I installed Vegas on the same
computer. Now neither program works.

Help?

Matt

From tim at perkis.com  Sun Jun  8 17:10:47 2008
From: tim at perkis.com (Tim Perkis)
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:10:47 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <55E95971-4E1D-49BE-B016-C6D3EDE39A3E@gmail.com>
References: <55E95971-4E1D-49BE-B016-C6D3EDE39A3E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <484C7507.5020802@perkis.com>

what is it about computers and electronics that makes people think 
audience interaction is a good idea? As someone said, At any time in the 
last 100,000 years, a storyteller could stop and ask the audience what 
they think should happen next: that has always been, and always will be, 
a bad idea.  There are of course ways in which an audience influences a 
performance, but they are too subtle for any camera + max-patch to suss out.

Sounds like Flock could have also been performed at any time in the last 
100,000 years, too, with the musicians sitting up on a hillside watching 
people milling around below... Why would that be interesting?

An essential part of any aesthetic experience is watching and listening: 
that is, shutting up and paying attention, being moved somewhere by what 
someone else is doing. "Interaction" is a distraction: did I make that 
happen? What is the mechanism? Can I hear a connection?

T



barry threw wrote:
> I just saw Flock at Zero1 yesterday, and I would be interested to hear  
> perspectives from the performers.
>
> Me? I thought it was terrible. This was not the fault of the  
> performers in any way whatsoever. Flock suffered from the primary sin  
> of media art and interactive music; using interactivity as a crutch to  
> justify the work.
>
> For those who don't know about it, a description... Audience members  
> wear lighted hats, that are tracked by a webcam on the ceiling. In a  
> certain square on the floor, that also contains the performers, the  
> positions of the audience members are notated for the performers.  All  
> pretty standard stuff at this point. There is a playhead that loops  
> across the x axis of the square, and the y axis is pitch...low to  
> high. So, as the playhead intersects an audience position, the player  
> sounds that note.
>
> This is one of three basic modes for the piece, the other two still  
> use the same basic time/pitch notational scheme. In the second mode,  
> the positions of audience members make a trail of notes. In the third  
> mode the playhead changes to being a kind of radar beacon radiating  
> from the performers locations. As it crosses and audience member, that  
> pitch is notated with proximity being mapped to pitch.
>
> That is pretty much all there is to it, with the exception of there  
> being sections where the performers play long tones with the same  
> audience pitch relationships. There were two sections with added sound  
> design elements, but they were extremely weak, could have just been  
> general midi tones.
>
> The problem is that compositionally, it fell flat. It tried to rely on  
> these audience interactions to create meaningful patterns for it, but  
> unfortunately this isn't enough to make a work that is compelling. As  
> the name Flock suggests, any time you have a group of people walking  
> aimlessly around the stage, you don't have audience interaction as  
> much as a statistical blob, in which case, just use that to make your  
> score.
>
> It also violated another cardinal media art sin (from my perspective  
> anyway) which is "If you have to explain the mechanics of your piece  
> at the beginning, it is going to be bad." The whole thing was largely  
> didactic. This might have been fun for audience members who are still  
> all "Hurr...technology is awesome" but for anyone who has gotten OVER  
> the fact that you can in fact make interactive works, and wants to see  
> some actual aesthetically pleasing results, it was tiresome.
>
> barry threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
> San Francisco, CA
> Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
> Web: www.barrythrew.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>   

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Sun Jun  8 17:51:33 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:51:33 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <484C7507.5020802@perkis.com>
References: <55E95971-4E1D-49BE-B016-C6D3EDE39A3E@gmail.com>
	<484C7507.5020802@perkis.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806081751k510d919dre8e322f980069aaf@mail.gmail.com>

...but isn't audience interaction somewhat of a requirement for local
grants? :)

I see this "audience interaction" thing as a subset of a larger trend of
electronic music - kind of an "oh the things we can do with computers"
mentality that winds up making for music that sounds so overly random it
winds up flat. Not picking on computer music itself - there's lots that I
love. I guess it's the fascination with keeping on the 'cutting edge' that I
think is overrated.

I admit I have been tempted to that siren call to make my system overly
complex, but fortunately I'm too much of a dullard. I'm still trying to
figure out why my laptop no worky with recording sounds. Why no one help
Matt?

Matt


On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Tim Perkis <tim at perkis.com> wrote:

> what is it about computers and electronics that makes people think
> audience interaction is a good idea? As someone said, At any time in the
> last 100,000 years, a storyteller could stop and ask the audience what
> they think should happen next: that has always been, and always will be,
> a bad idea.  There are of course ways in which an audience influences a
> performance, but they are too subtle for any camera + max-patch to suss
> out.
>
> Sounds like Flock could have also been performed at any time in the last
> 100,000 years, too, with the musicians sitting up on a hillside watching
> people milling around below... Why would that be interesting?
>
> An essential part of any aesthetic experience is watching and listening:
> that is, shutting up and paying attention, being moved somewhere by what
> someone else is doing. "Interaction" is a distraction: did I make that
> happen? What is the mechanism? Can I hear a connection?
>
> T
>
>
>
> barry threw wrote:
> > I just saw Flock at Zero1 yesterday, and I would be interested to hear
> > perspectives from the performers.
> >
> > Me? I thought it was terrible. This was not the fault of the
> > performers in any way whatsoever. Flock suffered from the primary sin
> > of media art and interactive music; using interactivity as a crutch to
> > justify the work.
> >
> > For those who don't know about it, a description... Audience members
> > wear lighted hats, that are tracked by a webcam on the ceiling. In a
> > certain square on the floor, that also contains the performers, the
> > positions of the audience members are notated for the performers.  All
> > pretty standard stuff at this point. There is a playhead that loops
> > across the x axis of the square, and the y axis is pitch...low to
> > high. So, as the playhead intersects an audience position, the player
> > sounds that note.
> >
>

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Sun Jun  8 18:43:37 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:43:37 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806081751k510d919dre8e322f980069aaf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E95971-4E1D-49BE-B016-C6D3EDE39A3E@gmail.com>
	<484C7507.5020802@perkis.com>
	<c70e517b0806081751k510d919dre8e322f980069aaf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5AF7C359-C5F9-4212-9D41-9CAF840D3916@balancepointacoustics.com>

I am generally against audience participation (although I had fun at  
Sperry's Treasure Mouth at MOCA yesterday), mainly because everyone  
can get their own gig now days.
In Hamburg there is a great, great place called the Multiple stop,  
you can get really nice artist multiples for good prices.
I saw a great one by a younger German artist who changed Beuy's  
famous "Every man is an artist" quote to "Every asshole is an artist".

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  8 18:44:10 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (Jon Raskin)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:44:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <54570.6646.qm@web55607.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

That is basically it except that the relationships that are established are fed to a 4 pocket PC's that  is feeding us the score that we are playing.  The front to back of the space is the measure and there is a blue line that goes across the PDA and we play when it intersects a green note or phrase.  As the music gets denser to goes to a 4 line that represent the 4 C's of a saxophone.  There are notes that appear as part of a phrase to anchor the tonality.

The score that he developed basically was a E and B major with Rova adding a "human element" where we were "making music" with the score in front of us.  It as tricky to read this score and make music and each time we did it we got better at it.
 
The dancers control the music and they started to understand that as we went along.  The piece was designed to be in an area that was twice the size with 4 projectors so the orientation wouldn't be limited.  A larger space would have meant that the proximity gradations would have opened up more possibilities.  We had a run through with the dancers right before the first performance who were from Santa Clara.

I saw possibilities with the set up if we could have workshop it with dancers who really understood music and the ability to build up some sonic language other than the monophonic space that we were dealing with.  It was to small a space and it needed room and time to beyond the obvious.  The interactive gets in the way since Jason wanted everyone to get a chance to participate.  The audience seem to really enjoy being in on the activity and it was bit scary sometime with so many people moving in such a tight space. (20'x20' and that is being generous)

I agree it was more of a demonstration and it was supposed to last 50 minutes but the projector was failing.   It deserved a better venue and equipment with more time to work the piece up.  On Friday night they had an art opening next door with loud music and a horrible rock trio performing outside on the street.  I also had some ambivalence about staring at the PDA the whole time and we took liberties with getting information from it (with Jason's permission)


He has a download of the rootkit which is in MAX http://www.jasonfreeman.net/.  



 Jon Raskin



----- Original Message ----
From: barry threw <bthrew at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 1:04:05 PM
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock

I just saw Flock at Zero1 yesterday, and I would be interested to hear  
perspectives from the performers.

Me? I thought it was terrible. This was not the fault of the  
performers in any way whatsoever. Flock suffered from the primary sin  
of media art and interactive music; using interactivity as a crutch to  
justify the work.

For those who don't know about it, a description... Audience members  
wear lighted hats, that are tracked by a webcam on the ceiling. In a  
certain square on the floor, that also contains the performers, the  
positions of the audience members are notated for the performers.  All  
pretty standard stuff at this point. There is a playhead that loops  
across the x axis of the square, and the y axis is pitch...low to  
high. So, as the playhead intersects an audience position, the player  
sounds that note.

This is one of three basic modes for the piece, the other two still  
use the same basic time/pitch notational scheme. In the second mode,  
the positions of audience members make a trail of notes. In the third  
mode the playhead changes to being a kind of radar beacon radiating  
from the performers locations. As it crosses and audience member, that  
pitch is notated with proximity being mapped to pitch.

That is pretty much all there is to it, with the exception of there  
being sections where the performers play long tones with the same  
audience pitch relationships. There were two sections with added sound  
design elements, but they were extremely weak, could have just been  
general midi tones.

The problem is that compositionally, it fell flat. It tried to rely on  
these audience interactions to create meaningful patterns for it, but  
unfortunately this isn't enough to make a work that is compelling. As  
the name Flock suggests, any time you have a group of people walking  
aimlessly around the stage, you don't have audience interaction as  
much as a statistical blob, in which case, just use that to make your  
score.

It also violated another cardinal media art sin (from my perspective  
anyway) which is "If you have to explain the mechanics of your piece  
at the beginning, it is going to be bad." The whole thing was largely  
didactic. This might have been fun for audience members who are still  
all "Hurr...technology is awesome" but for anyone who has gotten OVER  
the fact that you can in fact make interactive works, and wants to see  
some actual aesthetically pleasing results, it was tiresome.

barry threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA
Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
Web: www.barrythrew.com

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Sun Jun  8 19:22:51 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:22:51 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] PC laptop help - fixed
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806081922p380e1d1bkaec317cfe61c7a07@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Tim Perkis for the correct answer, which was "uninstall and reinstall
the audio in/out device driver". Yay!

On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
wrote:

> hi all,
>
> Could someone help me with a PC audio problem?
>
> I'm trying to record on either of 2 pieces of software - either Adobe
> Audition or Sony Vegas. Both are giving me the same trouble.
>
> Even though I have my presonus Inspire set as the audio device, neither
> program seems to be 'hearing' the audio in 'armed for record' mode.
>
> If I try to record a sound, it will only "record" for about 1/10th of a
> second, then it will stop and put an 0.10 second audio file in the project.
> (In other words, it acts exactly as if I hit "stop" after a tenth of a
> second.)
>
> The same thing happens if I insert an existing sound file into an open
> project and try to hit play. It will play then stop after a 10th of a
> second.
>
> Everything seemed to be working ok a few weeks ago with Adobe Audition. The
> only thing that's changed since then is that I installed Vegas on the same
> computer. Now neither program works.
>
> Help?
>
> Matt
>

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  8 19:46:28 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (Jon Raskin)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:46:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <570886.21622.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

? what grants are you talking about?  I don't think the numbers add up.  there is a lot of interest in audience out reach and involvement of an audience in Public Art grants but I don't think the symphony, opera, kronos and most dance companies are having the audience participate during performance.

 Jon Raskin



----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 5:51:33 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock

...but isn't audience interaction somewhat of a requirement for local
grants? :)

I see this "audience interaction" thing as a subset of a larger trend of
electronic music - kind of an "oh the things we can do with computers"
mentality that winds up making for music that sounds so overly random it
winds up flat. Not picking on computer music itself - there's lots that I
love. I guess it's the fascination with keeping on the 'cutting edge' that I
think is overrated.

I admit I have been tempted to that siren call to make my system overly
complex, but fortunately I'm too much of a dullard. I'm still trying to
figure out why my laptop no worky with recording sounds. Why no one help
Matt?

Matt


On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Tim Perkis <tim at perkis.com> wrote:

> what is it about computers and electronics that makes people think
> audience interaction is a good idea? As someone said, At any time in the
> last 100,000 years, a storyteller could stop and ask the audience what
> they think should happen next: that has always been, and always will be,
> a bad idea.  There are of course ways in which an audience influences a
> performance, but they are too subtle for any camera + max-patch to suss
> out.
>
> Sounds like Flock could have also been performed at any time in the last
> 100,000 years, too, with the musicians sitting up on a hillside watching
> people milling around below... Why would that be interesting?
>
> An essential part of any aesthetic experience is watching and listening:
> that is, shutting up and paying attention, being moved somewhere by what
> someone else is doing. "Interaction" is a distraction: did I make that
> happen? What is the mechanism? Can I hear a connection?
>
> T
>
>
>
> barry threw wrote:
> > I just saw Flock at Zero1 yesterday, and I would be interested to hear
> > perspectives from the performers.
> >
> > Me? I thought it was terrible. This was not the fault of the
> > performers in any way whatsoever. Flock suffered from the primary sin
> > of media art and interactive music; using interactivity as a crutch to
> > justify the work.
> >
> > For those who don't know about it, a description... Audience members
> > wear lighted hats, that are tracked by a webcam on the ceiling. In a
> > certain square on the floor, that also contains the performers, the
> > positions of the audience members are notated for the performers.  All
> > pretty standard stuff at this point. There is a playhead that loops
> > across the x axis of the square, and the y axis is pitch...low to
> > high. So, as the playhead intersects an audience position, the player
> > sounds that note.
> >
>
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Sun Jun  8 21:59:39 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:59:39 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Matt whacking himself on head with ruler
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806082159u7c5399afrc365d82bdc03152f@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, PC problem again, where it records/plays for only 0.10 seconds.

Reinstalling the Audio in/out device fixes the problems, but after 20-45
minutes it rears its head again, and I have to reinstall it again. It's not
the largest pain in the ass yet, since it only takes 60 seconds. The problem
is after it happens a certain number of times, I tend to get up and do
something else.

So, a permanent fix. Should I try a completely different brand of audio
in/out device? I'm currently using a Presonus Inspire with Sony Vegas.

If anyone's interested, I'm keeping a blog about the process of trying to
record a pop cd (with, you know, different instruments and words). It'll be
on my Myspace page.

Matt

From pnyboer at slambassador.com  Mon Jun  9 08:58:15 2008
From: pnyboer at slambassador.com (Peter Nyboer)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:58:15 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1212984002.794.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1212984002.794.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <281DF38D-08BB-4DC4-90D1-B44D4C72A701@slambassador.com>

RE; Flock.  "Terrible" is not word I would use.  As an experiment, I  
think it's great.  I'm glad that people are getting an opportunity to  
try out these ideas and present them to audiences.  It's not like  
punk rock where you and your teenage friends can realize it in a  
garage - it needs a lot of thought, education, gear, and help to  
realize even a poor outcome. So, I would avoid the word "terrible,"  
as it is a fairly discouraging word in a context that deserves  
encouragement.
Aesthetically, I didn't like it.  There was no connection between the  
score and activity I saw, and what I heard, and I think this was a  
latency problem, rather than a problem with the musicians.  Only  
because I've seen the musicians writings on this list that I gave  
them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't just say "fuck it,  
let's just play whatever," but the disconnection more or less made it  
sound like it. I didn't like the pace of the score, and there was a  
lack of dynamic.  There was one point where it was successful - the  
dancers collected a lot of people to put on stage and placed them.   
Eventually a large group was on, all standing there, and then they  
began to move in a direction, dictated by the dancers.  There was  
actually a change in feeling and music! Meaning!  However, it didn't  
last long.
There was a staging problem too - all the LEDs on peoples heads who  
weren't currently participating drove my eyes CRAZY.  I was like  
scores of tiny suns on the horizon, rather than the model of one big  
bright one above.  My brain didn't like it. Also - dancers in black  
in a mostly dark room is like area rock played on headphones rather  
than a PA.  And lets just say, the headphones aren't on your head,  
but on the stage, and you are in row 30 on the second tier of the  
arena...
As for audience interaction being a "bad idea", maybe it won't make  
music that you think is the greatest, but it does provide a  
conceptual framework for an art piece, and it is a good theatrical  
device.  (If you think it guarantees "failure," then I suggest you  
look research the popularity of the Blue Man group, whose theater in  
part relies on audience participation). I would also defend it as  
very appropriate for moderntechnologyart, as it provides a means of  
understanding, narrating, and discovering  our relationship to  
technology, and how our interactions with it provide meaning in our  
lives. And, no, I didn't just read that from a museum card, it comes  
from my own bizzarre experience of using the same gestures to create  
music, read the news, sculpt visual stories, and send this email.

Peter

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Mon Jun  9 10:12:51 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806081751k510d919dre8e322f980069aaf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <668092.66629.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm still trying to
figure out why my laptop no worky with recording sounds. Why no one help
Matt?

Matt


PG:
Dude, if you "need" my help, you're serious deep shit. If I tried to help you, you would be saying, "why phillip such stupid idiot?"

From bthrew at gmail.com  Mon Jun  9 10:13:58 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:13:58 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <281DF38D-08BB-4DC4-90D1-B44D4C72A701@slambassador.com>
References: <mailman.1.1212984002.794.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
	<281DF38D-08BB-4DC4-90D1-B44D4C72A701@slambassador.com>
Message-ID: <5200D155-4778-4B93-B594-F17E924EC6CE@gmail.com>

I really do get your point about trying new things and  
experimenting...its hard to learn if you don't, however:

"Aesthetically, I didn't like it" is pretty much the end of the road  
for me. While I do think that these concepts need to be experimented  
with, I don't care if you are killing kittens and throwing them at the  
score for notation, the work is either good or bad.

Like, seriously, screw the technology. Both you or I could have  
thought of this piece conceptually, lord knows that mapping locations  
to a score is nothing new, and we both probably would have ended up  
saying "So...what are we going to DO with it?". We wouldn't even spend  
the time building it until the score was well thought out. The problem  
is that Flock doesn't do ANYTHING with it compositionally...or at  
least the least common denominator.

One thing I will give it is that the dancers idea could be more fully  
explored. It is worth noting that the stage size was pretty small at  
01. I think with a larger theatrical component it should be possible  
to create a piece with the exact same system that is very interesting,  
but a masters thesis technology demo does not validate the work.

I realize I'm treading on thin ice here a bit...if anyone has seen a  
TrioMetrik show there are certainly times where things don't come  
together for me and anyone else (i.e. are "bad"). However, that means  
that those works are, indeed, bad, at least at that performance.  
However many hours I spent building violin mappings does not mean that  
the final work should be given any more aesthetic consideration than  
if it was on a CD.

I've just grown weary of this "Makers Faire" mentality where you throw  
some technology together and everyone is glad you built something.  
People have to go the next step and make something GOOD.

bt




On Jun 9, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Peter Nyboer wrote:

> RE; Flock.  "Terrible" is not word I would use.  As an experiment, I
> think it's great.  I'm glad that people are getting an opportunity to
> try out these ideas and present them to audiences.  It's not like
> punk rock where you and your teenage friends can realize it in a
> garage - it needs a lot of thought, education, gear, and help to
> realize even a poor outcome. So, I would avoid the word "terrible,"
> as it is a fairly discouraging word in a context that deserves
> encouragement.
> Aesthetically, I didn't like it.  There was no connection between the
> score and activity I saw, and what I heard, and I think this was a
> latency problem, rather than a problem with the musicians.  Only
> because I've seen the musicians writings on this list that I gave
> them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't just say "fuck it,
> let's just play whatever," but the disconnection more or less made it
> sound like it. I didn't like the pace of the score, and there was a
> lack of dynamic.  There was one point where it was successful - the
> dancers collected a lot of people to put on stage and placed them.
> Eventually a large group was on, all standing there, and then they
> began to move in a direction, dictated by the dancers.  There was
> actually a change in feeling and music! Meaning!  However, it didn't
> last long.
> There was a staging problem too - all the LEDs on peoples heads who
> weren't currently participating drove my eyes CRAZY.  I was like
> scores of tiny suns on the horizon, rather than the model of one big
> bright one above.  My brain didn't like it. Also - dancers in black
> in a mostly dark room is like area rock played on headphones rather
> than a PA.  And lets just say, the headphones aren't on your head,
> but on the stage, and you are in row 30 on the second tier of the
> arena...
> As for audience interaction being a "bad idea", maybe it won't make
> music that you think is the greatest, but it does provide a
> conceptual framework for an art piece, and it is a good theatrical
> device.  (If you think it guarantees "failure," then I suggest you
> look research the popularity of the Blue Man group, whose theater in
> part relies on audience participation). I would also defend it as
> very appropriate for moderntechnologyart, as it provides a means of
> understanding, narrating, and discovering  our relationship to
> technology, and how our interactions with it provide meaning in our
> lives. And, no, I didn't just read that from a museum card, it comes
> from my own bizzarre experience of using the same gestures to create
> music, read the news, sculpt visual stories, and send this email.
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Mon Jun  9 11:55:54 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 11:55:54 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <7272233a0806071526w14453733h2cb8e9d01b451d71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806061836n28ab7f47id819ca2be48d7bd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806062116i729a5a14x695dad0c4a409086@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806071526w14453733h2cb8e9d01b451d71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806091155j4832f545k242aac6a8299178c@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> argh - trying to catch up on this thread, here. Warning: this is going to
> be mostly me padding the list agreeing with what lx is saying, but I just
> wanted him and Ron to know that I am definitely listening to what they have
> to say, and urge them to please continue,
>
lx says:

>
> in the case of the DS, electroplankton is ok, but i find the ds10 from korg
> far more interesting, and there's underground stuff out there already...
>
> http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2006/11/nintendo-ds-hacked-into-cool-wireless.html
>
> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/04/11/nintendo-ds-as-hardware-step-sequencer/
>

I say:

I don't even think of electroplankton as something that has any live
performance potential.
I love electroplankton from a designer perspective, as in, "I am so jealous,
I want to make a game like this" but yeah, as a finished product it's
definitely a toy. A very pretty toy that I actually don't want to bend or
hack or break.

lx says:

...of note to me is that it's wifi.  i can synchronise several sequencers
with no quaint old MIDI cables involved, and that feature alone points
toward a more fluid sort of interaction between performers.
the low cost of the DS [esp compared to tenori-on] also plays into this.
it's as cheap as an entry level electric guitar, therefore more people can
justify cost of entry.  ...and also, emotionally approach their creativity
from a more 'fun' space - it's not expensive, therefore it's not work.  but
i'm digressing...again...

And I say:

the guy that made that DS sequencer seems to agree with you: HE says:

As for mobile gadgets to work with, this also illustrates some advantages of
the DS over the iPhone ? well, aside from the obvious facts that it's far
cheaper, you're not saving up battery life to make calls, and you can play
Mario Kart. The old-fashioned game hardware buttons actually come in handy,
and they're ergonomically placed, you get the added precision of a stylus,
and the DS *hardware* is more hackable. Multi-touch would be nice on those
faders, though.

lx says:

>
>   ...if their SDK is
> like others i've used [ahem, and you as well], there's plenty of hacking
> and
> experimenting involved in simply making things work as advertised.


and I say:

Ha ha Leapster. It's not even worth hacking. Actually I take that back,
sometimes if you put files in there with no header information it made some
really crazy sounds.


lx says:


> these [virtual piano and virtual fretboard] are just quick expressions
> of what can be done with the SDK.


this is very true.  We should write something for it that really takes
advantage of the accelerometers, like you say later. It would be goofy, and
then it's kind of like "okay, so what do we do with it" but at least it may
give us some direction.

The DS sounds like the way to go -- aside from the classic Radio Shack
Sensors Lab. SensorSlab, but i've done that enough, it's time to move on. I
do love the idea of taking something a little bit more obsolete and making
it do something. Like the very first round of PDAs, that would be funny.

k

>
>
>



>

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  9 12:01:22 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?Sm9uIFJhc2tpbg==?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:01:22 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <5200D155-4778-4B93-B594-F17E924EC6CE@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1212984002.794.newmusic@music.mills.edu><281DF38D-08BB-4DC4-90D1-B44D4C72A701@slambassador.com><5200D155-4778-4B93-B594-F17E924EC6CE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <756133919-1213038086-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-827940528-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

"Good" is the a type of end of the road.  This , along with new increasingly have the "to me". 

Consider this:  The organizer flew to Miami to see the Flock and than put together a substantial budget for.  I suspect   the interactive portion was catalyst for this rather than aesthetic concerns.

How to this guy to understand "good" is the only way to get "good" supported


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Threw <bthrew at gmail.com>

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:13:58 
To:Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock


I really do get your point about trying new things and  
experimenting...its hard to learn if you don't, however:

"Aesthetically, I didn't like it" is pretty much the end of the road  
for me. While I do think that these concepts need to be experimented  
with, I don't care if you are killing kittens and throwing them at the  
score for notation, the work is either good or bad.

Like, seriously, screw the technology. Both you or I could have  
thought of this piece conceptually, lord knows that mapping locations  
to a score is nothing new, and we both probably would have ended up  
saying "So...what are we going to DO with it?". We wouldn't even spend  
the time building it until the score was well thought out. The problem  
is that Flock doesn't do ANYTHING with it compositionally...or at  
least the least common denominator.

One thing I will give it is that the dancers idea could be more fully  
explored. It is worth noting that the stage size was pretty small at  
01. I think with a larger theatrical component it should be possible  
to create a piece with the exact same system that is very interesting,  
but a masters thesis technology demo does not validate the work.

I realize I'm treading on thin ice here a bit...if anyone has seen a  
TrioMetrik show there are certainly times where things don't come  
together for me and anyone else (i.e. are "bad"). However, that means  
that those works are, indeed, bad, at least at that performance.  
However many hours I spent building violin mappings does not mean that  
the final work should be given any more aesthetic consideration than  
if it was on a CD.

I've just grown weary of this "Makers Faire" mentality where you throw  
some technology together and everyone is glad you built something.  
People have to go the next step and make something GOOD.

bt




On Jun 9, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Peter Nyboer wrote:

> RE; Flock.  "Terrible" is not word I would use.  As an experiment, I
> think it's great.  I'm glad that people are getting an opportunity to
> try out these ideas and present them to audiences.  It's not like
> punk rock where you and your teenage friends can realize it in a
> garage - it needs a lot of thought, education, gear, and help to
> realize even a poor outcome. So, I would avoid the word "terrible,"
> as it is a fairly discouraging word in a context that deserves
> encouragement.
> Aesthetically, I didn't like it.  There was no connection between the
> score and activity I saw, and what I heard, and I think this was a
> latency problem, rather than a problem with the musicians.  Only
> because I've seen the musicians writings on this list that I gave
> them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't just say "fuck it,
> let's just play whatever," but the disconnection more or less made it
> sound like it. I didn't like the pace of the score, and there was a
> lack of dynamic.  There was one point where it was successful - the
> dancers collected a lot of people to put on stage and placed them.
> Eventually a large group was on, all standing there, and then they
> began to move in a direction, dictated by the dancers.  There was
> actually a change in feeling and music! Meaning!  However, it didn't
> last long.
> There was a staging problem too - all the LEDs on peoples heads who
> weren't currently participating drove my eyes CRAZY.  I was like
> scores of tiny suns on the horizon, rather than the model of one big
> bright one above.  My brain didn't like it. Also - dancers in black
> in a mostly dark room is like area rock played on headphones rather
> than a PA.  And lets just say, the headphones aren't on your head,
> but on the stage, and you are in row 30 on the second tier of the
> arena...
> As for audience interaction being a "bad idea", maybe it won't make
> music that you think is the greatest, but it does provide a
> conceptual framework for an art piece, and it is a good theatrical
> device.  (If you think it guarantees "failure," then I suggest you
> look research the popularity of the Blue Man group, whose theater in
> part relies on audience participation). I would also defend it as
> very appropriate for moderntechnologyart, as it provides a means of
> understanding, narrating, and discovering  our relationship to
> technology, and how our interactions with it provide meaning in our
> lives. And, no, I didn't just read that from a museum card, it comes
> from my own bizzarre experience of using the same gestures to create
> music, read the news, sculpt visual stories, and send this email.
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From bthrew at gmail.com  Mon Jun  9 13:35:54 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:35:54 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <756133919-1213038086-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-827940528-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <mailman.1.1212984002.794.newmusic@music.mills.edu><281DF38D-08BB-4DC4-90D1-B44D4C72A701@slambassador.com><5200D155-4778-4B93-B594-F17E924EC6CE@gmail.com>
	<756133919-1213038086-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-827940528-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <EF603284-AB94-4912-B8E3-23A78F4103B4@gmail.com>

I'm sorry Jon, I don't understand what you are saying here.

bt

On Jun 9, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Jon Raskin wrote:

> "Good" is the a type of end of the road.  This , along with new  
> increasingly have the "to me".
>
> Consider this:  The organizer flew to Miami to see the Flock and  
> than put together a substantial budget for.  I suspect   the  
> interactive portion was catalyst for this rather than aesthetic  
> concerns.
>
> How to this guy to understand "good" is the only way to get "good"  
> supported
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Threw <bthrew at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:13:58
> To:Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock
>
>
> I really do get your point about trying new things and
> experimenting...its hard to learn if you don't, however:
>
> "Aesthetically, I didn't like it" is pretty much the end of the road
> for me. While I do think that these concepts need to be experimented
> with, I don't care if you are killing kittens and throwing them at the
> score for notation, the work is either good or bad.
>
> Like, seriously, screw the technology. Both you or I could have
> thought of this piece conceptually, lord knows that mapping locations
> to a score is nothing new, and we both probably would have ended up
> saying "So...what are we going to DO with it?". We wouldn't even spend
> the time building it until the score was well thought out. The problem
> is that Flock doesn't do ANYTHING with it compositionally...or at
> least the least common denominator.
>
> One thing I will give it is that the dancers idea could be more fully
> explored. It is worth noting that the stage size was pretty small at
> 01. I think with a larger theatrical component it should be possible
> to create a piece with the exact same system that is very interesting,
> but a masters thesis technology demo does not validate the work.
>
> I realize I'm treading on thin ice here a bit...if anyone has seen a
> TrioMetrik show there are certainly times where things don't come
> together for me and anyone else (i.e. are "bad"). However, that means
> that those works are, indeed, bad, at least at that performance.
> However many hours I spent building violin mappings does not mean that
> the final work should be given any more aesthetic consideration than
> if it was on a CD.
>
> I've just grown weary of this "Makers Faire" mentality where you throw
> some technology together and everyone is glad you built something.
> People have to go the next step and make something GOOD.
>
> bt
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Peter Nyboer wrote:
>
>> RE; Flock.  "Terrible" is not word I would use.  As an experiment, I
>> think it's great.  I'm glad that people are getting an opportunity to
>> try out these ideas and present them to audiences.  It's not like
>> punk rock where you and your teenage friends can realize it in a
>> garage - it needs a lot of thought, education, gear, and help to
>> realize even a poor outcome. So, I would avoid the word "terrible,"
>> as it is a fairly discouraging word in a context that deserves
>> encouragement.
>> Aesthetically, I didn't like it.  There was no connection between the
>> score and activity I saw, and what I heard, and I think this was a
>> latency problem, rather than a problem with the musicians.  Only
>> because I've seen the musicians writings on this list that I gave
>> them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't just say "fuck it,
>> let's just play whatever," but the disconnection more or less made it
>> sound like it. I didn't like the pace of the score, and there was a
>> lack of dynamic.  There was one point where it was successful - the
>> dancers collected a lot of people to put on stage and placed them.
>> Eventually a large group was on, all standing there, and then they
>> began to move in a direction, dictated by the dancers.  There was
>> actually a change in feeling and music! Meaning!  However, it didn't
>> last long.
>> There was a staging problem too - all the LEDs on peoples heads who
>> weren't currently participating drove my eyes CRAZY.  I was like
>> scores of tiny suns on the horizon, rather than the model of one big
>> bright one above.  My brain didn't like it. Also - dancers in black
>> in a mostly dark room is like area rock played on headphones rather
>> than a PA.  And lets just say, the headphones aren't on your head,
>> but on the stage, and you are in row 30 on the second tier of the
>> arena...
>> As for audience interaction being a "bad idea", maybe it won't make
>> music that you think is the greatest, but it does provide a
>> conceptual framework for an art piece, and it is a good theatrical
>> device.  (If you think it guarantees "failure," then I suggest you
>> look research the popularity of the Blue Man group, whose theater in
>> part relies on audience participation). I would also defend it as
>> very appropriate for moderntechnologyart, as it provides a means of
>> understanding, narrating, and discovering  our relationship to
>> technology, and how our interactions with it provide meaning in our
>> lives. And, no, I didn't just read that from a museum card, it comes
>> from my own bizzarre experience of using the same gestures to create
>> music, read the news, sculpt visual stories, and send this email.
>>
>> Peter
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From pnyboer at slambassador.com  Mon Jun  9 21:15:48 2008
From: pnyboer at slambassador.com (Peter Nyboer)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 21:15:48 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1213070403.2167.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1213070403.2167.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <3531864C-921A-45BE-BE38-857C32B50019@slambassador.com>


> "Aesthetically, I didn't like it" is pretty much the end of the road
> for me.
...yeah, i just kinda want to shy away from "terrible."  I'm a bit  
starved down here in San Jose, man!  Finally we get some seeds of  
tech art happening, and I want to keep the seeds growing :)

> but a masters thesis technology demo does not validate the work.
also agreed...like, 01sj is trying to promote itself as "top shelf"  
and, as such, needs to dig a bit deeper in finding productions.  It  
really isn't the proper venue for that performance.

> I've just grown weary of this "Makers Faire" mentality where you throw
> some technology together and everyone is glad you built something.
> People have to go the next step and make something GOOD.

yeah, I think too much ecstasy was taken in the past 20 years. As  
great as it is, it has encouraged too much vapid praise and good  
vibes.  Dammit, kids gotta start takin' LSD again if there's gonna be  
any hope for the world!

P.

From djcypod at gmail.com  Mon Jun  9 21:17:21 2008
From: djcypod at gmail.com (beau)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 21:17:21 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806091155j4832f545k242aac6a8299178c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806061836n28ab7f47id819ca2be48d7bd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806062116i729a5a14x695dad0c4a409086@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806071526w14453733h2cb8e9d01b451d71@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806091155j4832f545k242aac6a8299178c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc5507fa0806092117y771d5452leef7cd5c0ca012bd@mail.gmail.com>

New iphone apps and lower price $200 ...the temptation is almost palpable:

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/08/ipod-touchiphone-for-music-round-up/

http://moocowmusic.com/Band/

These look like fun if you were on bart of something, work on some
tracks on the train ride home and when you get to the studio upload
the melody or arrangement to your virtual studio for high-rez mixdown
with spacialization.

Speaking of hacking is anyone else going to WWDC this week?






On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 11:55 AM, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> argh - trying to catch up on this thread, here. Warning: this is going to
>> be mostly me padding the list agreeing with what lx is saying, but I just
>> wanted him and Ron to know that I am definitely listening to what they have
>> to say, and urge them to please continue,
>>
> lx says:
>
>>
>> in the case of the DS, electroplankton is ok, but i find the ds10 from korg
>> far more interesting, and there's underground stuff out there already...
>>
>> http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2006/11/nintendo-ds-hacked-into-cool-wireless.html
>>
>> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/04/11/nintendo-ds-as-hardware-step-sequencer/
>>
>
> I say:
>
> I don't even think of electroplankton as something that has any live
> performance potential.
> I love electroplankton from a designer perspective, as in, "I am so jealous,
> I want to make a game like this" but yeah, as a finished product it's
> definitely a toy. A very pretty toy that I actually don't want to bend or
> hack or break.
>
> lx says:
>
> ...of note to me is that it's wifi.  i can synchronise several sequencers
> with no quaint old MIDI cables involved, and that feature alone points
> toward a more fluid sort of interaction between performers.
> the low cost of the DS [esp compared to tenori-on] also plays into this.
> it's as cheap as an entry level electric guitar, therefore more people can
> justify cost of entry.  ...and also, emotionally approach their creativity
> from a more 'fun' space - it's not expensive, therefore it's not work.  but
> i'm digressing...again...
>
> And I say:
>
> the guy that made that DS sequencer seems to agree with you: HE says:
>
> As for mobile gadgets to work with, this also illustrates some advantages of
> the DS over the iPhone ? well, aside from the obvious facts that it's far
> cheaper, you're not saving up battery life to make calls, and you can play
> Mario Kart. The old-fashioned game hardware buttons actually come in handy,
> and they're ergonomically placed, you get the added precision of a stylus,
> and the DS *hardware* is more hackable. Multi-touch would be nice on those
> faders, though.
>
> lx says:
>
>>
>>   ...if their SDK is
>> like others i've used [ahem, and you as well], there's plenty of hacking
>> and
>> experimenting involved in simply making things work as advertised.
>
>
> and I say:
>
> Ha ha Leapster. It's not even worth hacking. Actually I take that back,
> sometimes if you put files in there with no header information it made some
> really crazy sounds.
>
>
> lx says:
>
>
>> these [virtual piano and virtual fretboard] are just quick expressions
>> of what can be done with the SDK.
>
>
> this is very true.  We should write something for it that really takes
> advantage of the accelerometers, like you say later. It would be goofy, and
> then it's kind of like "okay, so what do we do with it" but at least it may
> give us some direction.
>
> The DS sounds like the way to go -- aside from the classic Radio Shack
> Sensors Lab. SensorSlab, but i've done that enough, it's time to move on. I
> do love the idea of taking something a little bit more obsolete and making
> it do something. Like the very first round of PDAs, that would be funny.
>
> k
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From gcremaschi at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 10 01:38:34 2008
From: gcremaschi at hotmail.com (George Cremaschi)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:38:34 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <5AF7C359-C5F9-4212-9D41-9CAF840D3916@balancepointacoustics.com>
References: <55E95971-4E1D-49BE-B016-C6D3EDE39A3E@gmail.com>
	<484C7507.5020802@perkis.com>
	<c70e517b0806081751k510d919dre8e322f980069aaf@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5AF7C359-C5F9-4212-9D41-9CAF840D3916@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <BLU136-W24D66A3E90BE8DB20B9728C1B30@phx.gbl>


Damon wrote:

> "Every asshole is an artist".

That's why I didn't move to Brooklyn.

-George

_________________________________________________________________
Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live? Messenger.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends

From lx.rudis at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 10:49:24 2008
From: lx.rudis at gmail.com (lx rudis)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:49:24 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <fc5507fa0806092117y771d5452leef7cd5c0ca012bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806061836n28ab7f47id819ca2be48d7bd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806062116i729a5a14x695dad0c4a409086@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806071526w14453733h2cb8e9d01b451d71@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806091155j4832f545k242aac6a8299178c@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806092117y771d5452leef7cd5c0ca012bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7272233a0806101049l4ad8883dh7efb69db1114c39c@mail.gmail.com>

thanks, kristin, although i've serious doubts as to the value of anything i
say on this forum.

having said that, here's something hackable that i like:
www.chumby.com




On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 9:17 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:

> New iphone apps and lower price $200 ...the temptation is almost palpable:


...and an incredibly useful link to iphone/itouch apps too.

sigh.  there's just so much available to us maniacs these days.  for me it's
mostly been about turning _away_ from options, limiting myself sometimes in
really odd ways so that i feel compelled to make...._something_.

i keep thinking about limited time, and something a friend recently said:
that the idea is to 'spend' time, not 'waste' it.  ...her point was that one
could definitely spend time meditating or just relaxing, but that 'work' is
often wasted time due to the nature of what 'jobs' are in our society.
there i go digressing again, but i think it's got value to say this,
especiaally when beau's next comment was:
<http://moocowmusic.com/Band/>

> These look like fun if you were on bart of something, work on some
> tracks on the train ride home and when you get to the studio upload
>

right.  when i was working for konami and had no time to do music, i
discovered that i could bike to caltrain, and suddenly i'd have a nice solid
hour per day of time to do whatever i wanted.  i bought a yamaha qy70
'walkstation', and started cracking the manual.  fwiw, i've still got that
little synth/sequencer, and have gotten so much practical use out of it that
it's frightening.

looking at the iphone 'audio' apps, and thinking about modern metaphors for
that walkstation - also the notion of persistent connectivity, upstream
storage, etc etc...well within that set of ideas, beau's next comment:


> the melody or arrangement to your virtual studio for high-rez mixdown
> with spacialization.


makes a _lot_ of sense.  i'd offer that i think things like iphones could
easily lead us to a performance terrain which involves very fluid definition
of what a 'venue' is, or what a 'band' is.  for example, is it possible that
i might do a 'show' out on the Bay Trail, connected to my friend carlos up
in seattle in realtime, and with an audience partially comprised of people
who hiked out to 'hear' me _on their PDA devices_, and partially comprised
of people 'watching' from minilife.biz?  is it possible that i might be able
to re-convene my old livefeed project [as we've already discussed and
experimented with] as something similar to the old FSOL 'tour', but using
multiple remote video performers accessing our servers in realtime, once
again with the main bulk of our audience not even at the venue we're
performing from?

...and i'll re-address something else i touched on earlier.  not so long ago
i could not process audio in realtime on my computer.  i had to invoke
rendering processes, then listen to the results 'later'.  who's to say that
the performance venue of the near future inherently involves 'timeshifting',
'serial deployment' and 'usergen' in order to justify a performance?

sigh.  whee.  </digressdigressdigress>


> Speaking of hacking is anyone else going to WWDC this week?
>

looks like 'im not:
"...WWDC 2008 is Sold Out..."

back to kristin:
iphone:
>
this is very true.  We should write something for it that really takes
advantage of the accelerometers, like you say later. It would be goofy, and
then it's kind of like "okay, so what do we do with it" but at least it may
give us some direction.
>

...i'm still liking the chumby.  dev platform for it is Flash Lite, and
err...well there's ways you can develop content that don't involve buying
Flash...

also, chumby claims that it's hackable, and they have a very 'street'
attitude about the product, in my experience.

will it be successful?  hell, i dunno.  just putting that out there...

kristin:
>
The DS sounds like the way to go
>

it's clean, well done hardware, and very attractive courtesy of the big game
modding community.

there's a certain imperative to using game consoles as synths and
performance devices.  one phenomenon i've been experiencing is the 8bit
kiddie thing, i'm starting to get pinged and namechecked by these folks who
grew up listening to console music, and it impacted them as directly as rock
music did the previous generation.  there's tons of info out there about
this movement, one of my favorite sites is:

http://www.8bitpeoples.com/
who do:
http://www.blipfestival.org/

also note this forum:
http://www.vorc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=507

kristin:
>
-- aside from the classic Radio Shack
Sensors Lab. SensorSlab, but i've done that enough, it's time to move on.
>

alas.  a call to arms.  or soldering irons.  sigh.  so damned busy!  but
yeah, i actually 'have' to build some stuff soon for rent's show-n-tell
during edgetone.  i am hoping to re-build the old sensor array i was using
in rave 'quiet room' installations way back in de 90s....

lx

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 10 11:44:17 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:44:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <7272233a0806101049l4ad8883dh7efb69db1114c39c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <328438.4558.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> > New iphone apps and lower price $200 ...the temptation
> is almost palpable:

it was tempting until I looked at the monthly service charges. seriously? are people paying that much a month for the iPhone?

crazy. I'll catch up with everyone when I'm making another $20K a year. right now, I can only aford to be behind.

(as is most of this country, which many people seem to forget)

lance

(steps off the soapbox to seek out an overpriced ice coffee drink, perhaps at a starbuck's...)


      

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 12:03:24 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:03:24 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <7272233a0806101049l4ad8883dh7efb69db1114c39c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0805281824u6cb5ca0dhef94900d21cb33b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0805291748n5252f73at9bd3fa3716109308@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806052232q5fb5c41awf808b64e0fcb426f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c70e517b0806061355s229153fkfe6d283fcd326fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806061836n28ab7f47id819ca2be48d7bd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806062116i729a5a14x695dad0c4a409086@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806071526w14453733h2cb8e9d01b451d71@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806091155j4832f545k242aac6a8299178c@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc5507fa0806092117y771d5452leef7cd5c0ca012bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<7272233a0806101049l4ad8883dh7efb69db1114c39c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806101203u5cf15a94ra828bae82d4a7051@mail.gmail.com>

...i'm still liking the chumby.  dev platform for it is Flash Lite, and
err...well there's ways you can develop content that don't involve buying
Flash...


I have flash. let's put it to good use!

i actually caught a segment on NPR about Chumby a while ago, and it made me
laugh -- their marketing campaign is gung-ho on targeting girls -- i think
specifically women who want a little of the social side of the technology,
but are not total tech heads. ..you can check your myspace page, and flickr,
muah muah, xoxoxo, etc etc. So that's why it's cute and soft and little!
...so let's solder some big antennas to it and give it teeth and a loud
growl.

k



On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:49 AM, lx rudis <lx.rudis at gmail.com> wrote:

> thanks, kristin, although i've serious doubts as to the value of anything i
> say on this forum.
>
> having said that, here's something hackable that i like:
> www.chumby.com
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 9:17 PM, beau <djcypod at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > New iphone apps and lower price $200 ...the temptation is almost
> palpable:
>
>
> ...and an incredibly useful link to iphone/itouch apps too.
>
> sigh.  there's just so much available to us maniacs these days.  for me
> it's
> mostly been about turning _away_ from options, limiting myself sometimes in
> really odd ways so that i feel compelled to make...._something_.
>
> i keep thinking about limited time, and something a friend recently said:
> that the idea is to 'spend' time, not 'waste' it.  ...her point was that
> one
> could definitely spend time meditating or just relaxing, but that 'work' is
> often wasted time due to the nature of what 'jobs' are in our society.
> there i go digressing again, but i think it's got value to say this,
> especiaally when beau's next comment was:
> <http://moocowmusic.com/Band/>
>
> > These look like fun if you were on bart of something, work on some
> > tracks on the train ride home and when you get to the studio upload
> >
>
> right.  when i was working for konami and had no time to do music, i
> discovered that i could bike to caltrain, and suddenly i'd have a nice
> solid
> hour per day of time to do whatever i wanted.  i bought a yamaha qy70
> 'walkstation', and started cracking the manual.  fwiw, i've still got that
> little synth/sequencer, and have gotten so much practical use out of it
> that
> it's frightening.
>
> looking at the iphone 'audio' apps, and thinking about modern metaphors for
> that walkstation - also the notion of persistent connectivity, upstream
> storage, etc etc...well within that set of ideas, beau's next comment:
>
>
> > the melody or arrangement to your virtual studio for high-rez mixdown
> > with spacialization.
>
>
> makes a _lot_ of sense.  i'd offer that i think things like iphones could
> easily lead us to a performance terrain which involves very fluid
> definition
> of what a 'venue' is, or what a 'band' is.  for example, is it possible
> that
> i might do a 'show' out on the Bay Trail, connected to my friend carlos up
> in seattle in realtime, and with an audience partially comprised of people
> who hiked out to 'hear' me _on their PDA devices_, and partially comprised
> of people 'watching' from minilife.biz?  is it possible that i might be
> able
> to re-convene my old livefeed project [as we've already discussed and
> experimented with] as something similar to the old FSOL 'tour', but using
> multiple remote video performers accessing our servers in realtime, once
> again with the main bulk of our audience not even at the venue we're
> performing from?
>
> ...and i'll re-address something else i touched on earlier.  not so long
> ago
> i could not process audio in realtime on my computer.  i had to invoke
> rendering processes, then listen to the results 'later'.  who's to say that
> the performance venue of the near future inherently involves
> 'timeshifting',
> 'serial deployment' and 'usergen' in order to justify a performance?
>
> sigh.  whee.  </digressdigressdigress>
>
>
> > Speaking of hacking is anyone else going to WWDC this week?
> >
>
> looks like 'im not:
> "...WWDC 2008 is Sold Out..."
>
> back to kristin:
> iphone:
> >
> this is very true.  We should write something for it that really takes
> advantage of the accelerometers, like you say later. It would be goofy, and
> then it's kind of like "okay, so what do we do with it" but at least it may
> give us some direction.
> >
>
> ...i'm still liking the chumby.  dev platform for it is Flash Lite, and
> err...well there's ways you can develop content that don't involve buying
> Flash...
>
> also, chumby claims that it's hackable, and they have a very 'street'
> attitude about the product, in my experience.
>
> will it be successful?  hell, i dunno.  just putting that out there...
>
> kristin:
> >
> The DS sounds like the way to go
> >
>
> it's clean, well done hardware, and very attractive courtesy of the big
> game
> modding community.
>
> there's a certain imperative to using game consoles as synths and
> performance devices.  one phenomenon i've been experiencing is the 8bit
> kiddie thing, i'm starting to get pinged and namechecked by these folks who
> grew up listening to console music, and it impacted them as directly as
> rock
> music did the previous generation.  there's tons of info out there about
> this movement, one of my favorite sites is:
>
> http://www.8bitpeoples.com/
> who do:
> http://www.blipfestival.org/
>
> also note this forum:
> http://www.vorc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=507
>
> kristin:
> >
> -- aside from the classic Radio Shack
> Sensors Lab. SensorSlab, but i've done that enough, it's time to move on.
> >
>
> alas.  a call to arms.  or soldering irons.  sigh.  so damned busy!  but
> yeah, i actually 'have' to build some stuff soon for rent's show-n-tell
> during edgetone.  i am hoping to re-build the old sensor array i was using
> in rave 'quiet room' installations way back in de 90s....
>
> lx
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 10 12:15:30 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:15:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <7272233a0806101049l4ad8883dh7efb69db1114c39c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <430455.89219.qm@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> > These look like fun if you were on bart of something,
> work on some
> > tracks on the train ride home and when you get to the
> studio upload

too busy reading on my commute. you'll have to refer your technology to my secretary.

lance




      

From bthrew at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 16:46:52 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:46:52 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <3531864C-921A-45BE-BE38-857C32B50019@slambassador.com>
References: <mailman.1.1213070403.2167.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
	<3531864C-921A-45BE-BE38-857C32B50019@slambassador.com>
Message-ID: <E40C86AA-E75B-456F-9C00-DC9D2F32F1D7@gmail.com>

Yeah, I guess its all context. Flock has a place, but it wasn't here,  
yet.

So maybe it wasn't terrible. It was just boring and I wish I would  
have done something else. At least it wasn't the DJ Spooky movie.

bt



On Jun 9, 2008, at 9:15 PM, Peter Nyboer wrote:

> also agreed...like, 01sj is trying to promote itself as "top shelf"
> and, as such, needs to dig a bit deeper in finding productions


From 21grand at 21grand.org  Tue Jun 10 17:10:09 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:10:09 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Flock
Message-ID: <C47465F1.252C4%21grand@21grand.org>

Peter wrote:

> but a masters thesis technology demo does not validate the work.
also agreed...like, 01sj is trying to promote itself as "top shelf"
and, as such, needs to dig a bit deeper in finding productions.  It
really isn't the proper venue for that performance.

-- so many things would be more tolerable if they promoted themselves for
what they really are. Most everything and everyone that refers to itself as
the "premier" blank ...is not, and it makes me dislike them, even if they're
actually just fine. Save the "premier" status for the press and large
funders, and communicate honestly with the target audience, who often knows
more about what's going on than the press and large funders.

> I've just grown weary of this "Makers Faire" mentality where you throw
> some technology together and everyone is glad you built something.
> People have to go the next step and make something GOOD.

-- Well, you have to start somewhere.  The argument is, undoubtedly, over
when something is ready for "public consumption," or if most of this
"community engaged" media and tech art should be spending more time in the
woodshed. Of course, public displays of mediocrity often have a stronger
effect on artistic development than sucking in private. They should, at any
rate.

sl



From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 10 17:18:03 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?Sm9uIFJhc2tpbg==?=)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:18:03 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer
In-Reply-To: <328438.4558.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <7272233a0806101049l4ad8883dh7efb69db1114c39c@mail.gmail.com><328438.4558.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <540901084-1213143484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1037190815-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Nothing about fixing the yearly 100 battery replacement on the announcement either.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Praemedia <praemedia at yahoo.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:44:17 
To:Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] terrible guitar hero trailer


> > New iphone apps and lower price $200 ...the temptation
> is almost palpable:

it was tempting until I looked at the monthly service charges. seriously? are people paying that much a month for the iPhone?

crazy. I'll catch up with everyone when I'm making another $20K a year. right now, I can only aford to be behind.

(as is most of this country, which many people seem to forget)

lance

(steps off the soapbox to seek out an overpriced ice coffee drink, perhaps at a starbuck's...)


      
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Tue Jun 10 17:20:19 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:20:19 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Flock
Message-ID: <C4746853.252C8%21grand@21grand.org>

Matt teased:
...but isn't audience interaction somewhat of a requirement for local
grants? :)

-- no, you're confusing it with "community engagement" ... A larger
category, that audience interaction is a subset of.

sl



From bthrew at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 17:46:29 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:46:29 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <C47465F1.252C4%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C47465F1.252C4%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <371F0EB1-23A0-4BFE-939A-B81B45811B37@gmail.com>

Yeah, to be fair, I really like the Maker Faire. I think it's  
important, and it's scale is certainly impressive. There are also a  
lot of good projects there. In this context, anything is good for  
public consumption.

It just seems like many are forgetting that there is another 90% after  
that.

Also, to be clear, I'm largely (obviously) ok with experimental music,  
or art of any kind. The problem I have is that if there hadn't been a  
computer and cam strapped to Flock, no one would have given them the  
time of day. Say, Rova had taken the time to practice, without  
computers, noticing the proximity of the audience around them and make  
a best guess estimate of the pitches involved (there could have been a  
physical staff printed on the floor and other guides). This, for some  
reason, probably would have made this piece uninteresting to most  
people, and the end result (I'm fairly sure) would have been largely  
the same.

bt


On Jun 10, 2008, at 5:10 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:

>> I've just grown weary of this "Makers Faire" mentality where you  
>> throw
>> some technology together and everyone is glad you built something.
>> People have to go the next step and make something GOOD.
>
> -- Well, you have to start somewhere.  The argument is, undoubtedly,  
> over
> when something is ready for "public consumption," or if most of this
> "community engaged" media and tech art should be spending more time  
> in the
> woodshed. Of course, public displays of mediocrity often have a  
> stronger
> effect on artistic development than sucking in private. They should,  
> at any
> rate.


From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 18:00:40 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:00:40 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <C4746853.252C8%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C4746853.252C8%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806101800u5513915ckf26c63d0a69df1a4@mail.gmail.com>

Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org> mocked Matt in a sarcastic voice:
>...but isn't audience interaction somewhat of a requirement for
> local grants? :)

Then went:
>-- no, you're confusing it with "community engagement" ... A larger
>category, that audience interaction is a subset of.

I teased that a while ago (at least 6 hours ago), and yes I did know the
difference. Just being a jerk I guess.

I do like where this conversation is heading in, in regards to the
difference between presenting a rough-draft musical concept, and presenting
a concept that has been integrated into something recognizable as music,
with the elements we tend to enjoy hearing music (such as dynamics). We've
been talking about electronic media, but the same could be applied to a lot
of "experimental" work.

The word "experimental" evokes that woodshed of ideas mentioned earlier, or
even an "R&D", but I've always wanted to make "music" rather than "sound
art". Making weird sounds and coming up with new concepts is fairly easy -
it's turning it back into music that's the challenge.

That said, it's given me a whole new respect for pop music and well produced
rock bands. If you listen closely, you'll hear all sorts of weird stuff -
definitely as weird as anything I've done, but it's only about 1/10th of the
whole song for some of those folks. (I've been obsessing over Radiohead like
a teenager since the beginning of the year, but you can even hear these
elements in a lot of hip-hop and "classic rock".)

...And as a completely separate tangent, I've been trying to figure whether
the willingness to be critical about one's own work, and to go back to the
woodshed is what eventually becomes the difference between "bands" and
"local bands". (By "local bands", I'm not specifically referring to the Bay
Area.) What's the difference between Matmos and other musicians working in
sample-based electronics? Or between the Boredoms and local noise/rock
bands?

Matt

Beforeward, Sarah also was like:
>-- Well, you have to start somewhere.  The argument is,
>undoubtedly, over
>when something is ready for "public consumption," or if most of
> this "community engaged" media and tech art should be spending
> more time in the woodshed. Of course, public displays of
> mediocrity often have a stronger effect on artistic development
> than sucking in private. They should, at any rate.

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 18:07:33 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:07:33 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <371F0EB1-23A0-4BFE-939A-B81B45811B37@gmail.com>
References: <C47465F1.252C4%21grand@21grand.org>
	<371F0EB1-23A0-4BFE-939A-B81B45811B37@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806101807g32646cbdu7712cead30e30722@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, between the 2 options below, I'd rather hear Rova. The electronic
musicians would seem more likely to get tied up in their own technology that
they tie the movements to weird sound parameters (duration and filtering
instead of pitch or something) that are hard to pay attention to.


Barry Threw was all:

Also, to be clear, I'm largely (obviously) ok with experimental music,
> or art of any kind. The problem I have is that if there hadn't been a
> computer and cam strapped to Flock, no one would have given them the
> time of day. Say, Rova had taken the time to practice, without
> computers, noticing the proximity of the audience around them and make
> a best guess estimate of the pitches involved (there could have been a
> physical staff printed on the floor and other guides). This, for some
> reason, probably would have made this piece uninteresting to most
> people, and the end result (I'm fairly sure) would have been largely
> the same.
>

From liberatednsf at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 10 18:50:53 2008
From: liberatednsf at yahoo.com (andrew wilshusen)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <48489.59031.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

There's an interview with Lennon talking about the Ono/Lennon album Two Virgins and explaining that it was basically stuff he'd been doing for years but with the Beatles they'd bury it in the mix with other pop stuff whereas with that album it wasn't buried.? Personally i'd rather listen to Two Virgins than any of the Beatles stuff any day.? the white album is okay.? I'd conjecture Matt seems to prefer "the weird stuff"?buried.? i'd also like to challenge a) that he can find a suitable definition?which differentiates music from sound art, and b) that coming up with new concepts is fairly easy.

andrew

http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
http://oudevoida.blogspot.com


----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>

>The word "experimental" evokes that woodshed of ideas mentioned earlier, or
>even an "R&D", but I've always wanted to make "music" rather than "sound
>art". Making weird sounds and coming up with new concepts is fairly easy -
>it's turning it back into music that's the challenge.

That said, it's given me a whole new respect for pop music and well produced
rock bands. If you listen closely, you'll hear all sorts of weird stuff -
definitely as weird as anything I've done, but it's only about 1/10th of the
whole song for some of those folks. (I've been obsessing over Radiohead like
a teenager since the beginning of the year, but you can even hear these
elements in a lot of hip-hop and "classic rock".)



      

From tomscandura at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 10 19:51:03 2008
From: tomscandura at hotmail.com (thomas scandura)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 02:51:03 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] Jenny Time
In-Reply-To: <20080606.104316.1820.43.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20080606.104316.1820.43.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY110-W41977C75FC85BFF81F94F7A4B20@phx.gbl>


Nice article in the NY Times arts section on Jenny Scheinman today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/arts/music/11sche.html?_r=1&ref=arts&oref=slogin

Cheers
-T



_________________________________________________________________
Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback.
http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyouback

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 20:42:05 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:42:05 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <48489.59031.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <48489.59031.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>

> find a suitable definition which differentiates music from sound art,


i was wondering this same thing. Matt, you care to try out a definition? A
really tough and good exercise. I have tried and I don't think I have
successfully put the difference into words.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:50 PM, andrew wilshusen <liberatednsf at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> There's an interview with Lennon talking about the Ono/Lennon album Two
> Virgins and explaining that it was basically stuff he'd been doing for years
> but with the Beatles they'd bury it in the mix with other pop stuff whereas
> with that album it wasn't buried.  Personally i'd rather listen to Two
> Virgins than any of the Beatles stuff any day.  the white album is okay.
> I'd conjecture Matt seems to prefer "the weird stuff" buried.  i'd also like
> to challenge a) that he can find a suitable definition which differentiates
> music from sound art, and b) that coming up with new concepts is fairly
> easy.
>
> andrew
>
> http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
> http://oudevoida.blogspot.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
>
> >The word "experimental" evokes that woodshed of ideas mentioned earlier,
> or
> >even an "R&D", but I've always wanted to make "music" rather than "sound
> >art". Making weird sounds and coming up with new concepts is fairly easy -
> >it's turning it back into music that's the challenge.
>
> That said, it's given me a whole new respect for pop music and well
> produced
> rock bands. If you listen closely, you'll hear all sorts of weird stuff -
> definitely as weird as anything I've done, but it's only about 1/10th of
> the
> whole song for some of those folks. (I've been obsessing over Radiohead
> like
> a teenager since the beginning of the year, but you can even hear these
> elements in a lot of hip-hop and "classic rock".)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 20:43:15 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:43:15 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Moog Guitar
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806102043h4d175b86jfcf24bec2890936@mail.gmail.com>

Since nobody else posted this today -

Moog company has built a guitar, with switches for infinite sustain and/or
immediate muting of the strings. The video says that it's not midi or
synthesis, but the actual vibration of the stings. Must have some sort of
built in ebow action going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3SsYQrgcyA

Selling price is $6500.00
http://moogmusic.com/moogguitar/?section=product&product_id=21129


Matt

From lx.rudis at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 21:54:58 2008
From: lx.rudis at gmail.com (lx rudis)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:54:58 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Moog Guitar
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806102043h4d175b86jfcf24bec2890936@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c70e517b0806102043h4d175b86jfcf24bec2890936@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7272233a0806102154j6a69831aic7f53adb513108f4@mail.gmail.com>

hmm.  at that price it's a tool for 5star professionals and a bauble for
rich dudes with moog fixations.

the forum's already alive with grumpy comments, checkidout:
http://moogmusic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5354

...so we get an expensive polyphonic ebow?  with 'intelligence' so it can
clamp strings.
i also get a moog lowpass filter thrown in?   whee!

i dunno dude...like i was ranting earlier, musical instruments should be
cheap enough for musicians to own them, even if they are repurposed toys.

but that's just me...



On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Since nobody else posted this today -
>
> Moog company has built a guitar, with switches for infinite sustain and/or
> immediate muting of the strings. The video says that it's not midi or
> synthesis, but the actual vibration of the stings. Must have some sort of
> built in ebow action going on.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3SsYQrgcyA
>
> Selling price is $6500.00
> http://moogmusic.com/moogguitar/?section=product&product_id=21129
>
>
> Matt
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 22:34:15 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:34:15 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48489.59031.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806102234j30db3d6eq900bf514c96bacb7@mail.gmail.com>

> andrew wilshusen <liberatednsf at yahoo.com> was all:
>
> > I'd conjecture Matt seems to prefer "the weird stuff" buried.
>

That'd be a misconjecturization. I like weird stuff both buried and
unburied, but I'm not as easily entertained by weird stuff for weirdness's
sake.

Then he was like:
>  i'd also like
> to challenge a) that he can find a suitable definition which
differentiates
> music from sound art,

Of course music is a 'sound art', but in my little world it's important to
think of the two separately. I guess it's up to you to decide whether you
think it's BS or not:

When I say "sound art", I'm trying to come up with a word for this whole
realm of making new sounds (such as finding a new setting on a synthesizer
or a new max patch, or a new 'extended technique') and conceptual ideas for
organizing sounds. Music happens when you make aesthetic decisions based on
artistic thinking rather than conceptual thinking.

For example, a few years ago I took a field recording of a train, and sped
it up at different rates so I had 24 separate recordings across chromatic
octaves. Then just played all the loops at their current length all at the
same time. It sounds pretty sweet, and there are pitch relationships in the
result that change over time. Does it meet the dictionary definition of
music? Sure does. But I didn't make a single musical or aesthetic decision.
It was all concept. Do I get to toot my horn about what a genius musician I
am for that piece? Personally I don't think so, but I'm glad I had the neat
idea.

I did another song around the same time, where I had a field recording
band-pass-filtered into 30 different pitches, which I then assigned to 30
different tracks. Then I spent the next 2 weeks carefully adjusting the
volume envelopes on each track so there's an actual melody that I think
sounds good, and a dynamic development as time passed. Is that a piece of
music? I think so.

Would somebody who hears the two recordings reach the same conclusion about
one being music and the other not? Not necessarily. Is there lots of gray
area? You betchya.

>and b) that coming up with new concepts is fairly easy.

Coming up with concepts is way easier than figuring out ways to make them
into music, in a way that works. Wasn't that what got this whole discussion
started?

From adam at otherminds.org  Wed Jun 11 08:50:36 2008
From: adam at otherminds.org (Adam Fong)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:50:36 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48489.59031.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5326B3DF-C7C6-4725-B02C-6379291CFFD9@otherminds.org>

On Jun 10, 2008, at 8:42 PM, kristin miltner wrote:

>> find a suitable definition which differentiates music from sound art,
>
>
> i was wondering this same thing. Matt, you care to try out a  
> definition? A
> really tough and good exercise. I have tried and I don't think I have
> successfully put the difference into words.
>

I recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on this subject here:
http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm

It's the essay "Sound Art, Art, Music". Grumpy, entertaining,  
enlightening, all at once!

-adam


> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:50 PM, andrew wilshusen  
> <liberatednsf at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There's an interview with Lennon talking about the Ono/Lennon  
>> album Two
>> Virgins and explaining that it was basically stuff he'd been doing  
>> for years
>> but with the Beatles they'd bury it in the mix with other pop  
>> stuff whereas
>> with that album it wasn't buried.  Personally i'd rather listen to  
>> Two
>> Virgins than any of the Beatles stuff any day.  the white album is  
>> okay.
>> I'd conjecture Matt seems to prefer "the weird stuff" buried.  i'd  
>> also like
>> to challenge a) that he can find a suitable definition which  
>> differentiates
>> music from sound art, and b) that coming up with new concepts is  
>> fairly
>> easy.
>>
>> andrew
>>
>> http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
>> http://oudevoida.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
>>
>>> The word "experimental" evokes that woodshed of ideas mentioned  
>>> earlier,
>> or
>>> even an "R&D", but I've always wanted to make "music" rather than  
>>> "sound
>>> art". Making weird sounds and coming up with new concepts is  
>>> fairly easy -
>>> it's turning it back into music that's the challenge.
>>
>> That said, it's given me a whole new respect for pop music and well
>> produced
>> rock bands. If you listen closely, you'll hear all sorts of weird  
>> stuff -
>> definitely as weird as anything I've done, but it's only about  
>> 1/10th of
>> the
>> whole song for some of those folks. (I've been obsessing over  
>> Radiohead
>> like
>> a teenager since the beginning of the year, but you can even hear  
>> these
>> elements in a lot of hip-hop and "classic rock".)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From pnyboer at slambassador.com  Wed Jun 11 09:18:14 2008
From: pnyboer at slambassador.com (Peter Nyboer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:18:14 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] NewMusic Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1213156802.3578.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1213156802.3578.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <831550FB-FEC3-4AEE-9DC2-CA5468F6212D@slambassador.com>

>
> Moog company has built a guitar, with switches for infinite sustain  
> and/or
> immediate muting of the strings. The video says that it's not midi or
> synthesis, but the actual vibration of the stings. Must have some  
> sort of
> built in ebow action going on.


This is part of a product lineage that seems to have been inspired by  
Spinal Tap. I seem to recall seeing some soft synth or amp sim. (or  
something) that is called "Eleven" which of course refers to Nigel  
Tufnels extra loud amp. And now this!  From the scene where he's  
showing off his guitars, and there's one where the sustain is just  
sooooo long

>  "music" rather than "sound
> art".

this wasn't too mysterious too me - my brain I think parses it such  
that  "music" is inspired more by things like rhythm, melody, and  
structure, but "sound art" is mostly concerned with timbre and dynamics.

>  The problem I have is that if there hadn't been a
> computer and cam strapped to Flock, no one would have given them the
> time of day.

don't forget led's on your head!

> At least it wasn't the DJ Spooky movie.
was that terrible? haven't heard anything about it.

Pete

From ingalls at mills.edu  Wed Jun 11 09:21:05 2008
From: ingalls at mills.edu (Matt J. Ingalls)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806110918080.22619@myfiles.mills.edu>


http://www.sfcv.org/2008/06/10/sound-garden/

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Wed Jun 11 10:56:49 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:56:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Encounters at the end of the World NY Times Review
Message-ID: <C613654B-DADE-4448-AA8A-791610B88109@balancepointacoustics.com>

This is the new Werner Herzog Film Henry Kaiser produced. Kaiser and  
David Lindley did the soundtrack and Cheryl Leonard, Jen Baker,  
William Winant, Danille DeGrutolla and I also played on some pieces.  
It opens in Berkeley on the 27th:

The New York Times

June 11, 2008
How Many Goodly Creatures Are There on Mr. Herzog?s Planet

By MANOHLA DARGIS
Few filmmakers make the end of days seem as hauntingly beautiful as  
Werner
Herzog does, or as inexorable. In his documentary ?Encounters at the  
End of
the World,? this professional madman and restlessly curious filmmaker
travels to the blinding white of the Antarctic, where he meets  
melancholic
scientists, brooding journeymen and various poets of the soul who,  
ensconced
in the American headquarters, McMurdo Station, have traveled so far  
beyond
the familiar coordinates ? so far beyond traditional cities, suburbs and
banal existence ? that they might as well be on another planet.

Call it Planet Herzog. Though I?m certain that the men and the  
smattering of
women in the documentary are far from ordinary ? their fantastic  
milieu and
haunted eyes suggest as much ? part of what makes them memorable is  
how Mr.
Herzog weaves them into his story. And make no mistake: from his  
familiar
droning voice-over to his ethereally lovely images and stubborn  
fatalism,
this is very much Werner Herzog?s story of the Antarctic and not, as he
intimates right up front, a heartfelt tale of ?fluffy? penguins, an easy
swipe at the palatable pleasures of the documentary ?March of the  
Penguins.?
Though there are, as it happens, some penguins here too, most  
memorably a
Herzogean creature that may trouble your dreams.

Like many of Mr. Herzog?s movies, fiction and nonfiction, ?Encounters  
at the
End of the World? itself has the quality of a dream: it?s at once  
vivid and
vague, easy to grasp and somehow beyond reach. Its inspiration can be  
found
in his 2005 movie, ?The Wild Blue Yonder,? a self-described science  
fiction
fantasy (about outer and inner spaces, for starters) that mixes  
fiction with
nonfiction. Its most striking nonfiction moments come courtesy of the
underwater video images shot in the Antarctic by his friend and sometime
composer, the guitarist Henry Kaiser, of divers swimming in the eerie  
blue
under a shelf of crystal ice. (Mr. Kaiser produced this new movie  
and, with
David Lindley, did its plaintive, effective string-centric music.)

These same underwater explorers return in ?Encounters at the End of the
World,? floating in cerulean amid otherworldly creatures, like fuzzy- 
looking
clams that languidly snap open and close like fur castanets and an
undulating jellyfish with silvery, near-transparent tentacles and  
what looks
like a raw steak at its center. I could watch these surreal creatures  
for
hours, and from the way he returns to these images, you get the sense  
that
so could Mr. Herzog. But there are other sights and sounds to marvel at,
including the Weddell seals that loll about indifferently on the  
surface,
soaking up rays like fat, lazy tourists but, once underwater, create a
symphony of electronic-like calls that one scientist accurately  
compares to
Pink Floyd.

One of the beauties of ?Encounters at the End of the World? is that  
all the
furry and floating animals are no more wondrous than the bipeds tramping
through and around McMurdo: the linguist turned philosopher, the banker
turned bus driver and the female adventurer who, for drama and odd
entertainment, likes to have herself zipped up in a carryall bag.  
(She?s her
own baggage.) Mr. Herzog opens his mind, heart and eyes to all these
wayfarers who ? despite the persistent strain of melancholy that touches
each and every person who appears on camera ? seem eerily at peace at  
the
bottom of the world. One reason may be that, like Mr. Herzog, more  
than a
few evince a deep-felt pessimism about both the present and the future.

If this were a nature documentary like any other, the casual talk about
global warming and other calamities might cast shadows across this  
bright
expanse. But there?s something about Mr. Herzog ? including the  
accidental
if now well-practiced comedy that colors even his most dramatic
pronouncements ? that inevitably keeps his pictures from growing too  
dark.
One reason is beauty, which in his hands has a way of keeping the  
worst at
bay; it is, after all, hard to fully despair in the face of so much  
of the
natural world?s splendors. Another reason, I think, has to do with Mr.
Herzog?s seemingly unshakable faith in human beings, who for all their
misdeeds at times reach a state of exaltedness. They soar ? just like  
that
jellyfish.


ENCOUNTERS AT THE END OF THE WORLD

Opens on Wednesday in Manhattan.

Written, directed and narrated by Werner Herzog; director of  
photography,
Peter Zeitlinger; edited by Joe Bini; music by Henry Kaiser and David
Lindley; produced by Mr. Kaiser; released by ThinkFilm. Shown with  
Matthew
Walker?s three-minute animated film ?John and Karen.? At Film Forum, 209
West Houston Street, west of Avenue of the Americas, South Village.  
Running
time: 1 hour 39 minutes. This film is rated G.




Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From dmonypeny at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 11 12:03:53 2008
From: dmonypeny at hotmail.com (Derek Monypeny)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:03:53 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1213156802.3578.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1213156802.3578.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <BLU104-W12542E3E62433E5B9829CCBCB20@phx.gbl>


> From: "Matt Davignon" <mattdavignon at gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock> To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" newmusic at music.mills.edu> ...And as a completely separate tangent, I've been trying to figure whether> the willingness to be critical about one's own work, and to go back to the> woodshed is what eventually becomes the difference between "bands" and> "local bands". (By "local bands", I'm not specifically referring to the Bay> Area.) What's the difference between Matmos and other musicians working in> sample-based electronics? Or between the Boredoms and local noise/rock> bands?
There's more to it than just the willingness to be critical and woodshed.  It's about who you know, etc.  But even the bands that are networked and connected have to deliver something in order to be "bands" (as opposed to "local bands").  To deliver something, you have to either have a dictatorship set up (and of course tons of the greatest music ever has been made under dictatorships), or you have to be critical about your own work, woodshed, communicate, and compromise.  
 
People tend to want to avoid conflict.  Add the +1000% sensitivity level of your typical music putz and you get lots of passive-aggresive scenarios.  'I'm a creative artist guy- watch how creatively I can fuck with you while protecting my ego.'  
 
It's not easy to make any record, go on any long tour, etc.  Not even a shitty one.  There are so many decisions that have to somehow be made.  I'm sure I'm not saying anything that you don't know already, but I didn't fully appreciate this for a long time.     
 
Deerhoof spent many, many yrs being a local band playing local shows to nobody.  They released records nationally, but they were a "local band."  But then they obviously got a lot of things together (music being just one), and now they are a professional worldwide rock juggernaut.  They've done it, IMO, without selling out anything with regards to their art.   How'd they do it?  I must have been really difficult!  I don't think I could admire them more than I do.
 
I say all this as a member of a "local band" that, IMO, has the potential to become a "band" were we ever able to navigate the various minefields (improvised exploding devices) that so far seem determined to keep us "local."  Whatever.  I'm most likely localband4life.  I'm pretty old.  Playing music w/others is still fun. 
 
Hi Mills College newmusic list.
 
-Derek
_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage.
http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Wed Jun 11 12:07:12 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:07:12 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <C4757070.2530E%21grand@21grand.org>

Matt D. claimed:
Of course music is a 'sound art', but in my little world it's important to
think of the two separately. I guess it's up to you to decide whether you
think it's BS or not:

... Music happens when you make aesthetic decisions based on
artistic thinking rather than conceptual thinking.

-- That's not a bad broad definition as far as broad definitions go, but I
would swap "artistic" and "aesthetic": Music happens when you make artistic
decisions based on aesthetic thinking rather than conceptual thinking ...

Though for practical purposes, people are going to identify what they do as
one or the other based on the circles they run in and how they want their
work perceived and presented. One could be a Cremaschian cynic, (btw I don't
want to intimate that this is something George believes) and say "sound art"
is what you call things that use sound that aren't musically good made by
people with art world aspirations.

But back to Matt's definition - I don't think "conceptual" is quite the
right term to use - and this is just based on what I'm familiar with that
I've seen presented as "sound art" that isn't just uninteresting music
presented in galleries/museums. I think what differentiates "sound art" from
music is that it is concerned primarily with the phenomenological, and the
context of its presentation is of primary importance and "part of the work"
... Obviously there are exceptions, and there are things that could be both.

sl   



From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 12:13:47 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:13:47 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <5326B3DF-C7C6-4725-B02C-6379291CFFD9@otherminds.org>
References: <48489.59031.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<5326B3DF-C7C6-4725-B02C-6379291CFFD9@otherminds.org>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806111213i14f10fd6n27abee0dd541e67c@mail.gmail.com>

recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on thIis subject here:
http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm

hey thanks,. this is cool....

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Adam Fong <adam at otherminds.org> wrote:

> On Jun 10, 2008, at 8:42 PM, kristin miltner wrote:
>
> >> find a suitable definition which differentiates music from sound art,
> >
> >
> > i was wondering this same thing. Matt, you care to try out a
> > definition? A
> > really tough and good exercise. I have tried and I don't think I have
> > successfully put the difference into words.
> >
>
>  recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on thIis subject here:
> http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm
>
> It's the essay "Sound Art, Art, Music". Grumpy, entertaining,
> enlightening, all at once!
>
> -adam
>
>
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:50 PM, andrew wilshusen
> > <liberatednsf at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> There's an interview with Lennon talking about the Ono/Lennon
> >> album Two
> >> Virgins and explaining that it was basically stuff he'd been doing
> >> for years
> >> but with the Beatles they'd bury it in the mix with other pop
> >> stuff whereas
> >> with that album it wasn't buried.  Personally i'd rather listen to
> >> Two
> >> Virgins than any of the Beatles stuff any day.  the white album is
> >> okay.
> >> I'd conjecture Matt seems to prefer "the weird stuff" buried.  i'd
> >> also like
> >> to challenge a) that he can find a suitable definition which
> >> differentiates
> >> music from sound art, and b) that coming up with new concepts is
> >> fairly
> >> easy.
> >>
> >> andrew
> >>
> >> http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
> >> http://oudevoida.blogspot.com
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> >>
> >>> The word "experimental" evokes that woodshed of ideas mentioned
> >>> earlier,
> >> or
> >>> even an "R&D", but I've always wanted to make "music" rather than
> >>> "sound
> >>> art". Making weird sounds and coming up with new concepts is
> >>> fairly easy -
> >>> it's turning it back into music that's the challenge.
> >>
> >> That said, it's given me a whole new respect for pop music and well
> >> produced
> >> rock bands. If you listen closely, you'll hear all sorts of weird
> >> stuff -
> >> definitely as weird as anything I've done, but it's only about
> >> 1/10th of
> >> the
> >> whole song for some of those folks. (I've been obsessing over
> >> Radiohead
> >> like
> >> a teenager since the beginning of the year, but you can even hear
> >> these
> >> elements in a lot of hip-hop and "classic rock".)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > kristin miltner
> > audio professional
> > www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 11 12:53:42 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (Jon Raskin)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:53:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <730755.84292.qm@web55607.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Sound Art, Art, Music (2006) does a good job?outlining the issues.??I've used sound, art, sound art, sound organizer, art music etc to say what?I'm doing rather than what I'm?not doing.? I'm not making blues, jazz, song form, classical, etc. which?is the answer to the follow up question.??Venues need categories to book and promote?and?the ones with money aren't as open?things that don't categorize easily.
It was nice to see his review of Semiconductor.? Rova?is working with them for an upcoming collaborative project.? More music and Technology together.?
?Jon Raskin



----- Original Message ----
From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:13:47 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock

recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on thIis subject here:
http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm

hey thanks,. this is cool....

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Adam Fong <adam at otherminds.org> wrote:

> On Jun 10, 2008, at 8:42 PM, kristin miltner wrote:
>
> >> find a suitable definition which differentiates music from sound art,
> >
> >
> > i was wondering this same thing. Matt, you care to try out a
> > definition? A
> > really tough and good exercise. I have tried and I don't think I have
> > successfully put the difference into words.
> >
>
>? recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on thIis subject here:
> http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm
>
> It's the essay "Sound Art, Art, Music". Grumpy, entertaining,
> enlightening, all at once!
>
> -adam
>
>
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:50 PM, andrew wilshusen
> > <liberatednsf at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> There's an interview with Lennon talking about the Ono/Lennon
> >> album Two
> >> Virgins and explaining that it was basically stuff he'd been doing
> >> for years
> >> but with the Beatles they'd bury it in the mix with other pop
> >> stuff whereas
> >> with that album it wasn't buried.? Personally i'd rather listen to
> >> Two
> >> Virgins than any of the Beatles stuff any day.? the white album is
> >> okay.
> >> I'd conjecture Matt seems to prefer "the weird stuff" buried.? i'd
> >> also like
> >> to challenge a) that he can find a suitable definition which
> >> differentiates
> >> music from sound art, and b) that coming up with new concepts is
> >> fairly
> >> easy.
> >>
> >> andrew
> >>
> >> http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
> >> http://oudevoida.blogspot.com
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> >>
> >>> The word "experimental" evokes that woodshed of ideas mentioned
> >>> earlier,
> >> or
> >>> even an "R&D", but I've always wanted to make "music" rather than
> >>> "sound
> >>> art". Making weird sounds and coming up with new concepts is
> >>> fairly easy -
> >>> it's turning it back into music that's the challenge.
> >>
> >> That said, it's given me a whole new respect for pop music and well
> >> produced
> >> rock bands. If you listen closely, you'll hear all sorts of weird
> >> stuff -
> >> definitely as weird as anything I've done, but it's only about
> >> 1/10th of
> >> the
> >> whole song for some of those folks. (I've been obsessing over
> >> Radiohead
> >> like
> >> a teenager since the beginning of the year, but you can even hear
> >> these
> >> elements in a lot of hip-hop and "classic rock".)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > kristin miltner
> > audio professional
> > www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From bthrew at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 13:09:25 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:09:25 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48489.59031.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28FA85CA-1E7D-4A64-9680-31243CE30167@gmail.com>

Music is constructed with abstractions primarily based on pitch  
relationships. Everything else is sound art.

bt

On Jun 10, 2008, at 8:42 PM, kristin miltner wrote:

> i was wondering this same thing. Matt, you care to try out a  
> definition?


From 21grand at 21grand.org  Wed Jun 11 13:11:12 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:11:12 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Flock
Message-ID: <C4757F70.25319%21grand@21grand.org>

So, drum solo = sound art?  The things I learn from this list!

sl

Barry wrote:
Music is constructed with abstractions primarily based on pitch
relationships. Everything else is sound art.

bt



From tbickley at metatronpress.com  Wed Jun 11 13:32:28 2008
From: tbickley at metatronpress.com (Tom Bickley)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:32:28 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] BBC CD reviews: League of Automatic Music Composers
Message-ID: <771E9BA0-E5D4-4619-A0C0-D2322BD7C54D@metatronpress.com>

This week on Hear and Now on BBC Radio 3 includes:

Perkis/Bischoff/Horton: Dense Drone (3:22)
Tim Perkins, John Bischoff, Jim Horton (electronics)
Album: The League of Automatic Music Composers 1978-1983
New World Records 80671-2 track 1

among a wide range of other recordings (Maderna, Braxton, etc.).

You can hear this via http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/hearandnow/pip/wzho6/
by clicking on the yellow loudspeaker icon. It online until sometime  
this coming Saturday.

Enjoy! -Tom

---------------------
Tom Bickley, tbickley at metatronpress.com
http://www.metatronpress.com/artists/tbickley/
http://www.myspace.com/tbickley

"It is not enough to decorate the world, the point is to influence  
it." - Cornelius Cardew



From bthrew at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 13:54:23 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:54:23 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <C4757F70.25319%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C4757F70.25319%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <1B09B42C-792A-41AA-962F-D8E604279B6E@gmail.com>

That would be a generous definition.

bt

On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:

> So, drum solo = sound art?  The things I learn from this list!
>
> sl
>
> Barry wrote:
> Music is constructed with abstractions primarily based on pitch
> relationships. Everything else is sound art.
>
> bt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From weaselw at juno.com  Wed Jun 11 15:14:49 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:14:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <20080611.151450.7764.3.weaselw@juno.com>

a drum solo can and generally is based on some form of pitch
relationship. gotta call bullshit right now.

ww
 
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:54:23 -0700 Barry Threw <bthrew at gmail.com> writes:
> That would be a generous definition.
> 
> bt
> 
> On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:
> 
> > So, drum solo = sound art?  The things I learn from this list!
> >
> > sl
> >
> > Barry wrote:
> > Music is constructed with abstractions primarily based on pitch
> > relationships. Everything else is sound art.
> >
> > bt
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> 
 
____________________________________________________________
Save on Moving Supplies. Click Here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oij8lIYoRuEkwU1muAaCNOdhKCNMLCSLj4m47PLK0gT5zaO/

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 15:24:37 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:24:37 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <730755.84292.qm@web55607.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <730755.84292.qm@web55607.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806111524i7fb548efg211e0ff879378abe@mail.gmail.com>

his review of Semiconductor.  Rova is working with them for an upcoming
collaborative project.

WOW. Semiconductor is one of my absolute favorite A/V duos. Any more info
about this project yet?

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Jon Raskin <jon_raskin at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sound Art, Art, Music (2006) does a good job outlining the issues.  I've
> used sound, art, sound art, sound organizer, art music etc to say what I'm
> doing rather than what I'm not doing.  I'm not making blues, jazz, song
> form, classical, etc. which is the answer to the follow up question.  Venues
> need categories to book and promote and the ones with money aren't as
> open things that don't categorize easily.
> It was nice to see his review of Semiconductor.  Rova is working with them
> for an upcoming collaborative project.  More music and Technology together.
>  Jon Raskin
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:13:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock
>
> recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on thIis subject here:
> http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm
>
> hey thanks,. this is cool....
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Adam Fong <adam at otherminds.org> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 10, 2008, at 8:42 PM, kristin miltner wrote:
> >
> > >> find a suitable definition which differentiates music from sound art,
> > >
> > >
> > > i was wondering this same thing. Matt, you care to try out a
> > > definition? A
> > > really tough and good exercise. I have tried and I don't think I have
> > > successfully put the difference into words.
> > >
> >
> >  recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on thIis subject here:
> > http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm
> >
> > It's the essay "Sound Art, Art, Music". Grumpy, entertaining,
> > enlightening, all at once!
> >
> > -adam
> >
> >
> > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:50 PM, andrew wilshusen
> > > <liberatednsf at yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> There's an interview with Lennon talking about the Ono/Lennon
> > >> album Two
> > >> Virgins and explaining that it was basically stuff he'd been doing
> > >> for years
> > >> but with the Beatles they'd bury it in the mix with other pop
> > >> stuff whereas
> > >> with that album it wasn't buried.  Personally i'd rather listen to
> > >> Two
> > >> Virgins than any of the Beatles stuff any day.  the white album is
> > >> okay.
> > >> I'd conjecture Matt seems to prefer "the weird stuff" buried.  i'd
> > >> also like
> > >> to challenge a) that he can find a suitable definition which
> > >> differentiates
> > >> music from sound art, and b) that coming up with new concepts is
> > >> fairly
> > >> easy.
> > >>
> > >> andrew
> > >>
> > >> http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
> > >> http://oudevoida.blogspot.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----
> > >> From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > >>
> > >>> The word "experimental" evokes that woodshed of ideas mentioned
> > >>> earlier,
> > >> or
> > >>> even an "R&D", but I've always wanted to make "music" rather than
> > >>> "sound
> > >>> art". Making weird sounds and coming up with new concepts is
> > >>> fairly easy -
> > >>> it's turning it back into music that's the challenge.
> > >>
> > >> That said, it's given me a whole new respect for pop music and well
> > >> produced
> > >> rock bands. If you listen closely, you'll hear all sorts of weird
> > >> stuff -
> > >> definitely as weird as anything I've done, but it's only about
> > >> 1/10th of
> > >> the
> > >> whole song for some of those folks. (I've been obsessing over
> > >> Radiohead
> > >> like
> > >> a teenager since the beginning of the year, but you can even hear
> > >> these
> > >> elements in a lot of hip-hop and "classic rock".)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > kristin miltner
> > > audio professional
> > > www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
>
>
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From tbickley at metatronpress.com  Wed Jun 11 15:28:57 2008
From: tbickley at metatronpress.com (Tom Bickley)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:28:57 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <28FA85CA-1E7D-4A64-9680-31243CE30167@gmail.com>
References: <48489.59031.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806102042p24705a6ay9ce8028e915c9ec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<28FA85CA-1E7D-4A64-9680-31243CE30167@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AB95641A-5599-4E2D-85B8-D6C681FA2A85@metatronpress.com>

I suspect Sarah's on a very useful track regarding the terms "sound  
art" and "music" reflecting the communities/venues/populations who  
use the terms. I realize that I think of Janet Cardiff's sound walks  
as "sound art" (http://www.cardiffmiller.com/artworks/walks/ 
index.html) and I think of my friend Viv Corringham's shadow walks  
(http://hometown.aol.co.uk/vivdc/) as "music." hmmm.

The pitch component is too specific/narrow for much work that I place  
in the music category. Also, I seek an integration of the conceptual  
and aesthetic. I understand them as complementary and necessary.  
Matt, do your sense conceptual and aesthetic as in opposition to each  
other? I sense that the task of a composer (and certainly a composer/ 
performer/improviser) is to bring those together and continue the  
process to bring a perceptible piece into existence. I think of music  
as what occurs when the perception of sound and/or silence is  
organized. (I'm not trying to define what is GOOD or BAD music/sound  
art here.)

Ah, http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm more to read! Thanks Adam!

Pax, -Tom

On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:09 PM, Barry Threw wrote:

> Music is constructed with abstractions primarily based on pitch
> relationships. Everything else is sound art.
>
> bt
>
> On Jun 10, 2008, at 8:42 PM, kristin miltner wrote:
>
>> i was wondering this same thing. Matt, you care to try out a
>> definition?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From bthrew at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 15:30:57 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:30:57 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <20080611.151450.7764.3.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20080611.151450.7764.3.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C49AE44E-60AC-48EC-BAC1-EE2A4C1A12BE@gmail.com>

Of course its bullshit. Like it fucking matters what we call things.

bt

On Jun 11, 2008, at 3:14 PM, weasel walter wrote:

> a drum solo can and generally is based on some form of pitch
> relationship. gotta call bullshit right now.
>
> ww
>
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:54:23 -0700 Barry Threw <bthrew at gmail.com>  
> writes:
>> That would be a generous definition.
>>
>> bt
>>
>> On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:
>>
>>> So, drum solo = sound art?  The things I learn from this list!
>>>
>>> sl
>>>
>>> Barry wrote:
>>> Music is constructed with abstractions primarily based on pitch
>>> relationships. Everything else is sound art.
>>>
>>> bt
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Save on Moving Supplies. Click Here!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oij8lIYoRuEkwU1muAaCNOdhKCNMLCSLj4m47PLK0gT5zaO/
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From weaselw at juno.com  Wed Jun 11 15:32:22 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:32:22 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <20080611.153223.7764.5.weaselw@juno.com>

well, you're saying the bullshit, not me.

ww
 
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:30:57 -0700 Barry Threw <bthrew at gmail.com> writes:
> Of course its bullshit. Like it fucking matters what we call things.
> 
> bt
> 
> On Jun 11, 2008, at 3:14 PM, weasel walter wrote:
> 
> > a drum solo can and generally is based on some form of pitch
> > relationship. gotta call bullshit right now.
> >
> > ww
> >
> > On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:54:23 -0700 Barry Threw <bthrew at gmail.com>  
> 
> > writes:
> >> That would be a generous definition.
> >>
> >> bt
> >>
> >> On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:
> >>
> >>> So, drum solo = sound art?  The things I learn from this list!
> >>>
> >>> sl
> >>>
> >>> Barry wrote:
> >>> Music is constructed with abstractions primarily based on pitch
> >>> relationships. Everything else is sound art.
> >>>
> >>> bt
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Save on Moving Supplies. Click Here!
> > 
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oij8lIYoRuEkwU1muAaCNO
dhKCNMLCSLj4m47PLK0gT5zaO/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> 
 

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 11 15:46:20 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (Jon Raskin)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:46:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <942099.50443.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

We are shooting for June of 2009 and the project would be Semiconductor, Charlotte Hug, Lisle Ellis, Le Quan?Ninh and Thomas Lehn if we get all the funding we need and schedules work out.? It has a working title of Fissures, Futures and?will focus on the philosophical writings of Buckminster Fuller and his?writings on structures.
?Jon Raskin 



----- Original Message ----
From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 3:24:37 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock

his review of Semiconductor.? Rova is working with them for an upcoming
collaborative project.

WOW. Semiconductor is one of my absolute favorite A/V duos. Any more info
about this project yet?

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Jon Raskin <jon_raskin at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sound Art, Art, Music (2006) does a good job outlining the issues.? I've
> used sound, art, sound art, sound organizer, art music etc to say what I'm
> doing rather than what I'm not doing.? I'm not making blues, jazz, song
> form, classical, etc. which is the answer to the follow up question.? Venues
> need categories to book and promote and the ones with money aren't as
> open things that don't categorize easily.
> It was nice to see his review of Semiconductor.? Rova is working with them
> for an upcoming collaborative project.? More music and Technology together.
>? Jon Raskin
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:13:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock
>
> recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on thIis subject here:
> http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm
>
> hey thanks,. this is cool....
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Adam Fong <adam at otherminds.org> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 10, 2008, at 8:42 PM, kristin miltner wrote:
> >
> > >> find a suitable definition which differentiates music from sound art,
> > >
> > >
> > > i was wondering this same thing. Matt, you care to try out a
> > > definition? A
> > > really tough and good exercise. I have tried and I don't think I have
> > > successfully put the difference into words.
> > >
> >
> >? recommend reading Douglas Kahn's musings on thIis subject here:
> > http://www.douglaskahn.com/writings-1.htm
> >
> > It's the essay "Sound Art, Art, Music". Grumpy, entertaining,
> > enlightening, all at once!
> >
> > -adam
> >
> >
> > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:50 PM, andrew wilshusen
> > > <liberatednsf at yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> There's an interview with Lennon talking about the Ono/Lennon
> > >> album Two
> > >> Virgins and explaining that it was basically stuff he'd been doing
> > >> for years
> > >> but with the Beatles they'd bury it in the mix with other pop
> > >> stuff whereas
> > >> with that album it wasn't buried.? Personally i'd rather listen to
> > >> Two
> > >> Virgins than any of the Beatles stuff any day.? the white album is
> > >> okay.
> > >> I'd conjecture Matt seems to prefer "the weird stuff" buried.? i'd
> > >> also like
> > >> to challenge a) that he can find a suitable definition which
> > >> differentiates
> > >> music from sound art, and b) that coming up with new concepts is
> > >> fairly
> > >> easy.
> > >>
> > >> andrew
> > >>
> > >> http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
> > >> http://oudevoida.blogspot.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----
> > >> From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> > >>
> > >>> The word "experimental" evokes that woodshed of ideas mentioned
> > >>> earlier,
> > >> or
> > >>> even an "R&D", but I've always wanted to make "music" rather than
> > >>> "sound
> > >>> art". Making weird sounds and coming up with new concepts is
> > >>> fairly easy -
> > >>> it's turning it back into music that's the challenge.
> > >>
> > >> That said, it's given me a whole new respect for pop music and well
> > >> produced
> > >> rock bands. If you listen closely, you'll hear all sorts of weird
> > >> stuff -
> > >> definitely as weird as anything I've done, but it's only about
> > >> 1/10th of
> > >> the
> > >> whole song for some of those folks. (I've been obsessing over
> > >> Radiohead
> > >> like
> > >> a teenager since the beginning of the year, but you can even hear
> > >> these
> > >> elements in a lot of hip-hop and "classic rock".)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > >> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > >> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > kristin miltner
> > > audio professional
> > > www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
>
>
>
> --
> kristin miltner
> audio professional
> www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Wed Jun 11 15:52:22 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:52:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806110918080.22619@myfiles.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <957843.14087.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"Matt J. Ingalls" <ingalls at mills.edu> wrote:
    http://www.sfcv.org/2008/06/10/sound-garden/
   
   
  Thanks for posting this review. I responded to it on the site, and have copied my comments for perusal below.
   
  Nice review - I echo many of the writer's sentiments, in particular, my deep appreciation of Kaija Saariaho?s composition for solo cello, which was deftly performed by Monica Scott. This was a rare modern composition where I could hear echoes of early works for solo cello, in particular, the well-worn Suites for Cello by JS Bach. It seemed to me that the beautiful colors and textures took the place of pitches, and the constant moving line, so familiar in Baroque works, was peering through the more modern sounds. A nice performance of a beautiful work!
  I also agree with the presentation of the work by John Cage, whose ideas are often brilliant, whether or not they produce great music. In this case, this piece moved me emotionally more than any other work on the program. I can't always say that for Cage's work...
   
  John Butcher played a nice set of two improvisations, and somehow they seemed a little more narrative-driven than earlier performances or recordings that I have heard of his. I usually am duly impressed with his (somewhat) unique musical language, but I often feel the presentation of those ideas are a bit too dry for my tastes. In this situation, the ideas seemed to be presented in a way that produced what I might think of as a more musical form. Nonetheless, having been around Mr. Butcher a little bit over the past several years, I believe that his presentation of his ideas are perfectly in concert with his temperment and personality, and I admire how he has sought to contribute something unique to the solo saxophone canon.
   
  I'm also in agreement with the writer on the final work, which was an improvised form created by Butcher and realized by sfSound. This wasn't the highlight of the evening for me, although there were quite a few moments of brilliance (mostly from Butcher and Robair, who have played in duo for many years and have always produced great work). 
   
  What seemed most apparent to me was the lack of committment by all of the players to the score (which I didn't have a chance to view, BTW). While many of the musicians seemed more than comfortable in this setting, it seemed a few of the players didn't really seem to know what to contribute or why. This can be the case when musicians who are highly-trained in 20th century music try to tackle free (or minimally structured) improvisation.  Usually, I don't feel this way about the sfSound players, many of whom are brilliant improvisers, but on this occasion, a good bit of the piece seemed tenuous in its realization.
   
  All in all, it was a really nice show, and it was the first time I had attended a show at the new ODC space, which seems utterly beautiful aesthetically. But acoustically, at least for this performance, I sensed that the room presents some acoustic challenges that are not easily met. In short, the space seems a bit dry, but not in a way that allows for the realization of a clear sonic image; rather, many of the sounds seemed to die in the space rapidly. This may have something to do with my reception to the large ensemble improvised piece at the end of the program (but somehow it seemed ideally suitable for the Cage). Finally sfSound continues to be one of the most consistent ensembles on the west coast, and I can count on them for a great evening of thought-provoking music.

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Wed Jun 11 15:53:17 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah Lockhart)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] flock
Message-ID: <2874.69.227.253.30.1213224797.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>

Uh, my point with the "drum solo" example was to point out that Barry's
definition of music = primarily based on pitch relationships, should
probably include some mention of rhythm.

sl


From bthrew at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 16:38:40 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:38:40 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <20080611.153223.7764.5.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20080611.153223.7764.5.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B09C8606-FAE7-4338-99C8-C3D15678110C@gmail.com>

True. I rarely expect my sense of humor to be picked up on.

bt


On Jun 11, 2008, at 3:32 PM, weasel walter wrote:

> well, you're saying the bullshit, not me.
>
> ww
>
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:30:57 -0700 Barry Threw <bthrew at gmail.com>  
> writes:
>> Of course its bullshit. Like it fucking matters what we call things.
>>
>> bt
>>
>> On Jun 11, 2008, at 3:14 PM, weasel walter wrote:
>>
>>> a drum solo can and generally is based on some form of pitch
>>> relationship. gotta call bullshit right now.
>>>
>>> ww
>>>
>>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:54:23 -0700 Barry Threw <bthrew at gmail.com>
>>
>>> writes:
>>>> That would be a generous definition.
>>>>
>>>> bt
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So, drum solo = sound art?  The things I learn from this list!
>>>>>
>>>>> sl
>>>>>
>>>>> Barry wrote:
>>>>> Music is constructed with abstractions primarily based on pitch
>>>>> relationships. Everything else is sound art.
>>>>>
>>>>> bt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> Save on Moving Supplies. Click Here!
>>>
>>
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oij8lIYoRuEkwU1muAaCNO
> dhKCNMLCSLj4m47PLK0gT5zaO/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From bthrew at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 16:42:58 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:42:58 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] flock
In-Reply-To: <2874.69.227.253.30.1213224797.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>
References: <2874.69.227.253.30.1213224797.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>
Message-ID: <D2B3A30F-B454-4B78-B338-90D052C0EA97@gmail.com>

Yeah...I mean, I was half kidding, although I do think the pitch thing  
is a pretty good running definition.

Weasel was right when he said the drum solo has strong pitch based  
elements. If all the drums were the same pitch, I don't think people  
would find it as musical. Nor do I think they would if the pitches  
were randomly changing.

If there is a better practical definition that doesn't get encumbered  
by a hot steaming load of theory, I haven't found it.

bt

On Jun 11, 2008, at 3:53 PM, Sarah Lockhart wrote:

> Uh, my point with the "drum solo" example was to point out that  
> Barry's
> definition of music = primarily based on pitch relationships, should
> probably include some mention of rhythm.
>
> sl
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Wed Jun 11 16:47:47 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:47:47 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] flock
In-Reply-To: <D2B3A30F-B454-4B78-B338-90D052C0EA97@gmail.com>
References: <2874.69.227.253.30.1213224797.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>
	<D2B3A30F-B454-4B78-B338-90D052C0EA97@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <71C74D63-6431-47E1-A6BF-C19A82A3029C@balancepointacoustics.com>

I think it sort of like the definition of Video art, it would be a  
sound work made for an installation or other "art" context.
I would include the fluxus sound/music pieces and Hermann Nitsch's  
compositions for his actions.
Apparently, Zorn has an installation at the new contemporary Jewish  
Museum. I am going to check it out tomorrow.


On Jun 11, 2008, at 4:42 PM, Barry Threw wrote:

> Yeah...I mean, I was half kidding, although I do think the pitch thing
> is a pretty good running definition.
>
> Weasel was right when he said the drum solo has strong pitch based
> elements. If all the drums were the same pitch, I don't think people
> would find it as musical. Nor do I think they would if the pitches
> were randomly changing.
>
> If there is a better practical definition that doesn't get encumbered
> by a hot steaming load of theory, I haven't found it.
>
> bt
>
> On Jun 11, 2008, at 3:53 PM, Sarah Lockhart wrote:
>
>> Uh, my point with the "drum solo" example was to point out that
>> Barry's
>> definition of music = primarily based on pitch relationships, should
>> probably include some mention of rhythm.
>>
>> sl
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From gcremaschi at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 11 17:22:45 2008
From: gcremaschi at hotmail.com (George Cremaschi)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:22:45 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <C4757070.2530E%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C4757070.2530E%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <BLU136-W313649F3DF84967F018131C1AD0@phx.gbl>


Sarah wrote:

> One could be a Cremaschian cynic, and say "sound art" is what you 
> call things that use sound that aren't musically good made by
> people with art world aspirations.

To be fair, I would just remove the phrase "that aren't musically good": I've heard
a lot of great sound art. In fact, so much, that it's had a big influence on my own
personal concept of sound production. The cynicism comes in with the phrase "art world
aspirations": there is no question that there are so many 'sound artists' because folks
figured out that there are potentially a lot more opportunities, and a lot more money, 
available to a 'sound artist' than to, say, an 'improvising saxophonist'. Not to mention, it's
a hell of a lot cooler to blather on about your recent 16-channel installation in Budapest
to that girl you're trying to pick up on at that Berlin art opening...

-George
_________________________________________________________________
Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live? Messenger.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends

From jfheule at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 18:25:49 2008
From: jfheule at gmail.com (jacob felix heule)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:25:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <957843.14087.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806110918080.22619@myfiles.mills.edu>
	<957843.14087.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c5cfa860806111825v1755c18fo5aded6704222ce8e@mail.gmail.com>

The Butcher/Robair duo in the middle of the group improv was the
highlight of the night. They've got a really amazing musical
relationship, and they were totally on top of their game Sunday night.
Buthcher's solos were also really nice, and the Cage piece sounded
great. I kinda wished Gino was the one bowing the piano with dental
floss though -- that's the sort of task best left to an avant garde
percussionist! Like the SFCV reviewer said, the chattery woodwind
quartet section in the group improv was also totally on. Really
pointed and musical, especially for a style of improv that often seems
to me arbitrary and lacking content.

The Hillside Club show w/ Butcher and company was also really great,
especially the more boisterous sections (sax/styrofoam duo,
butcher/robair/shiurba trio, quintet).

It was pretty interesting seeing Butcher & Weasel trying (or trying
not) to integrate their differing styles last night. Damon tended to
mediate.

Heading to CNMAT tonight might be Butcher overdose for ME, but YOU
should go if you haven't seen him perform 3 times yet this week.

jacob

-- 
http://heule.us & http://myspace.com/jacobfelix
http://ettrick.org & http://myspace.com/ettrick

From jfheule at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 18:25:49 2008
From: jfheule at gmail.com (jacob felix heule)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:25:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <957843.14087.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0806110918080.22619@myfiles.mills.edu>
	<957843.14087.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c5cfa860806111825v1755c18fo5aded6704222ce8e@mail.gmail.com>

The Butcher/Robair duo in the middle of the group improv was the
highlight of the night. They've got a really amazing musical
relationship, and they were totally on top of their game Sunday night.
Buthcher's solos were also really nice, and the Cage piece sounded
great. I kinda wished Gino was the one bowing the piano with dental
floss though -- that's the sort of task best left to an avant garde
percussionist! Like the SFCV reviewer said, the chattery woodwind
quartet section in the group improv was also totally on. Really
pointed and musical, especially for a style of improv that often seems
to me arbitrary and lacking content.

The Hillside Club show w/ Butcher and company was also really great,
especially the more boisterous sections (sax/styrofoam duo,
butcher/robair/shiurba trio, quintet).

It was pretty interesting seeing Butcher & Weasel trying (or trying
not) to integrate their differing styles last night. Damon tended to
mediate.

Heading to CNMAT tonight might be Butcher overdose for ME, but YOU
should go if you haven't seen him perform 3 times yet this week.

jacob

-- 
http://heule.us & http://myspace.com/jacobfelix
http://ettrick.org & http://myspace.com/ettrick

From weaselw at juno.com  Wed Jun 11 20:02:00 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:02:00 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
Message-ID: <20080611.200239.7764.13.weaselw@juno.com>

> It was pretty interesting seeing Butcher & Weasel trying (or trying
> not) to integrate their differing styles last night. Damon tended 
> to mediate.

i didn't find what we were doing to be musically incongruent in any way
whatsoever!

apparently damon did, but had a slight change of heart after some late
night mcdonalds . . . there was never any point where i was doing
something that wasn't directly related to what john was doing. my agenda
has to do with creating an intersection of languages with the other
players, not playing in some pre-conceived idiom. i think damon tends to
be more dogmatic about these things. perhaps this is why he'll probably
go farther than me. 

as far as damon's contribution went, i had to do some inference because
he was unamplified and far away from me, so that's why he would seem like
a musical mediator - my decisions were more based on what john was doing
and the inference of what damon was doing. i sat out for a good quarter
of the set because there was no need to play the whole time. plenty of
music happening!

my attitude, bluntly, is that i don't show up to play "john butcher's
greatest hits" - i show up to play "john butcher-damon smith-weasel
walter music". if that means i don't get called again, so mote it be. i
think the music was very good last night and the recording will prove
that. we played with an incredibly wide dynamic range and timbral
variety. there were no static spots. 

ww
____________________________________________________________
Summer Spa Sweepstakes
Enter for your chance to WIN a Summer Spa Vacation!
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From pamelaz at pamelaz.com  Wed Jun 11 20:44:40 2008
From: pamelaz at pamelaz.com (Pamela Z)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:44:40 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Non-musician needs Live/Max help
In-Reply-To: <FC6836A7-9545-4162-AAEF-7E7A109D8784@balancepointacoustics.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806012223190.18084@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>
	<FC6836A7-9545-4162-AAEF-7E7A109D8784@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <CA04B312-25DA-4AD2-A3AE-60D6A8D716E8@pamelaz.com>

Hello List,

I got a call from a performer named Derique McGee who does a  
"Hambone" performance thing using a MIDI controller of some type and  
an old EMU sampler and a Jamman.  He said that he is looking for  
someone who would be willing to do a couple hours of consultation  
with him to help him get started using Ableton Live (which he has  
purchased but doesn't know how to use) and/or Max.  I told him there  
might be someone subscribing to this list that he could hire... (and  
that it would probably take more than "a couple of hours...")

If there's someone on this list who would like to pick up a little  
consulting work (specifically someone who has a little experience  
using Live) please drop him a line at deriques at yahoo.com


Cheers,

Pamela



On Jun 2, 2008, at 6/2/08,  8:37 AM, Damon Smith wrote:

> My web host has been lame lately.  I am in Chicago until wed.  Can I
> tell you then? I can also drop out if you need the room.
> On Jun 1, 2008, at 10:38 PM, Tom Duff wrote:
>
>>
>> I've never had to say this before, but the Skronkathon is completely
>> booked up.  I have 20 proposals in hand and that's all we can
>> reasonably
>> accomodate.  Now, usually two or three will cancel (and once or twice
>> we've had a no-show) so I guess we should have a waiting list.
>> With that
>> in mind, feel free to keep sending proposals to td at pixar.com.
>>
>> Also, mail to damon at balancepointacoustics.com is bouncing.  Damon:
>> you're on the program, but you need to send me more detailed
>> information
>> ASAP so I can get publicity releases together.  (Who are you
>> planning to
>> play with?  Solo?)
>>
>> Here's the bounce report.  As far as I can tell it means that
>> Damon's ISP
>> hates me for not jumping through some unspecified hoop:
>>
>> The following message to <damon at balancepointacoustics.com> was
>> undeliverable.
>> The reason for the problem:
>> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Verification failed for
>> <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout verification
>> failure\nSender verify failed'
>>
>>     [ Part 2: "Delivery Status" ]
>>
>> Reporting-MTA: dns; emx.pixar.com
>>
>> Final-Recipient: rfc822;damon at balancepointacoustics.com
>> Action: failed
>> Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)
>> Remote-MTA: dns; [67.15.16.13]
>> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error  
>> 550-'Verification
>> failed
>> for <prvs=td=0328476e7 at pixar.com>\nPrevious (cached) callout
>> verification
>> failure\nSender verify failed' (delivery attempts: 0)
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Tom Duff.  BTW, I considered just mailing Loren directly.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> Damon Smith
>
> http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
> http://myspace.com/smithdamon
> New solo project:
> http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Pamela Z
Composer/Performer

Contact info:

Telephone: 415.861.EARS (415.861.3277)
Mobile: 415.5PAMELA (415.572.6352)
FAX: 415.861.FAKS (415.861.3257)
(I forward my land line to my mobile phone when I'm travelling)

pamelaz at pamelaz.com
http://www.pamelaz.com
http://www.myspace.com/pamelazcomposer

Skype: pamelazed   AIM: pamelazdotcom

Snail Mail:
Pamela Z Productions
540 Alabama Street Studio 213
San Francisco, CA 94110, USA

shipping address (for packages larger than a 10" x 13" envelope):
Pamela Z  2440 Sixteenth Street  PMB #171, San Francisco, CA 94103, USA

Pamela Z's CD "A Delay is Better" on the Starkland label is now  
available at
http://cdbaby.com
http://www.amazon.com, http://www.starkland.com, and in
stores near you.




From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Wed Jun 11 22:03:52 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:03:52 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <20080611.200239.7764.13.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20080611.200239.7764.13.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <70C103BF-B038-4103-A537-905F49D531A0@balancepointacoustics.com>

On Jun 11, 2008, at 8:02 PM, weasel walter wrote:

>  i show up to play "john butcher-damon smith-weasel
> walter music".

Ultimately that is what happened, and John sounded fucking great  
playing strong,  and he went with it.
My bass is out of whack from the heat, so I was a little testy  
afterward, for one I couldn't get what I wanted out of it at the  
higher volumes.

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From weaselw at juno.com  Wed Jun 11 23:24:53 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:24:53 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
Message-ID: <20080611.232723.7764.17.weaselw@juno.com>

john did sound great. he kicked ass. if that's him going out of the box,
i'm glad i had a hand in it. 

ww
 
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:03:52 -0700 Damon Smith
<damon at balancepointacoustics.com> writes:
> On Jun 11, 2008, at 8:02 PM, weasel walter wrote:
> 
> >  i show up to play "john butcher-damon smith-weasel
> > walter music".
> 
> Ultimately that is what happened, and John sounded fucking great  
> playing strong,  and he went with it.
> My bass is out of whack from the heat, so I was a little testy  
> afterward, for one I couldn't get what I wanted out of it at the  
> higher volumes.
> 
> Damon Smith
> 
> http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
> http://myspace.com/smithdamon
> New solo project:
> http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> 
 
____________________________________________________________
Fabulous Spa Getaway!
Enter for your chance to WIN great beauty prizes everyday!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7UrpexxNZbXQ96ltG3a6ekzoJ4X7g8BSVKJKeFjgn2Nz47s/

From michaelz at zoka.com  Thu Jun 12 09:44:06 2008
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:44:06 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] flock
In-Reply-To: <71C74D63-6431-47E1-A6BF-C19A82A3029C@balancepointacoustics.com>
References: <2874.69.227.253.30.1213224797.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>
	<D2B3A30F-B454-4B78-B338-90D052C0EA97@gmail.com>
	<71C74D63-6431-47E1-A6BF-C19A82A3029C@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <p06240897c47683e34260@[192.168.0.2]>

On 6/11/08, Damon Smith wrote:

>Apparently, Zorn has an installation at the new contemporary Jewish
>Museum. I am going to check it out tomorrow.

We heard it last week. It's good (at least the pieces I heard), but 
it's not what you think. The earlier descriptions are to blame, I 
suspect. The current one on the museum's Web site is more accurate:

>John Zorn Presents the Aleph-Bet Sound Project
>June 8, 2008 - January 4, 2009
>
>Highly-acclaimed musician and MacArthur Fellow John Zorn was 
>commissioned by the Contemporary Jewish Museum to curate a series of 
>sound pieces for the Museum's Special Events/ 'yud' gallery, a 
>unique space featuring a 65-foot ceiling, 36 diamond-shaped 
>skylights, and walls that converge at different angles. Featuring 
>new work by leading musicians and composers such as Lou Reed, Laurie 
>Anderson, Erik Friedlander, David Greenberger, Chris Brown, Z'EV, 
>Terry Riley, Alvin Curran, Christina Kubisch, Marina Rosenfeld, Raz 
>Mesinai, and Jewlia Eisenberg, the Aleph-bet Sound Project 
>acoustically explores the Kabbalistic principle that the ancient 
>Hebrew alphabet is a spiritual tool full of hidden meaning and 
>harmony. The works musically link the alphabetic symbols in 
>architect Daniel Libeskind's design for the new facility with the 
>Museum's mission of exploring traditions within a contemporary 
>context.

<http://www.thecjm.org/index.php?option=com_ccevents&scope=exbt&task=detail&oid=3>

(Strictly speaking, the Chris Brown piece is by The Hub -- but you'd 
have to ask Tim for more about that. . .)

Sound art or music? You decide.

MZ


--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From philipeverett at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 09:55:44 2008
From: philipeverett at yahoo.com (Philip Everett)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <825384.62109.qm@web63714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Young, gifted and pretty is pretty much the recipe for sucess in the biz---probably the only alternative is hard work, dilligent study and the willinness to endlessly tour and promote?at your own expense----but this is nothing new!!
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Philip E.



----- Original Message ----
From: Derek Monypeny <dmonypeny at hotmail.com>
To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:03:53 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock


> From: "Matt Davignon" <mattdavignon at gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock> To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" newmusic at music.mills.edu> ...And as a completely separate tangent, I've been trying to figure whether> the willingness to be critical about one's own work, and to go back to the> woodshed is what eventually becomes the difference between "bands" and> "local bands". (By "local bands", I'm not specifically referring to the Bay> Area.) What's the difference between Matmos and other musicians working in> sample-based electronics? Or between the Boredoms and local noise/rock> bands?
There's more to it than just the willingness to be critical and woodshed.? It's about who you know, etc.? But even the bands that are networked and connected have to deliver something in order to be "bands" (as opposed to "local bands").? To deliver something, you have to either have a dictatorship set up (and of course tons of the greatest music ever has been made under dictatorships), or you have to be critical about your own work, woodshed, communicate, and compromise.? 

People tend to want to avoid conflict.? Add the +1000% sensitivity level of your typical music putz and you get lots of passive-aggresive scenarios.? 'I'm a creative artist guy- watch how creatively I can fuck with you while protecting my ego.'? 

It's not easy to make any record, go on any long tour, etc.? Not even a shitty one.? There are so many decisions that have to somehow be made.? I'm sure I'm not saying anything that you don't know already, but I didn't fully appreciate this for a long time.? ? 

Deerhoof spent many, many yrs being a local band playing local shows to nobody.? They released records nationally, but they were a "local band."? But then they obviously got a lot of things together (music being just one), and now they are a professional worldwide rock juggernaut.? They've done it, IMO, without selling out anything with regards to their art.? How'd they do it?? I must have been really difficult!? I don't think I could admire them more than I do.

I say all this as a member of a "local band" that, IMO, has the potential to become a "band" were we ever able to navigate the various minefields (improvised exploding devices) that so far seem determined to keep us "local."? Whatever.? I'm most likely localband4life.? I'm pretty old.? Playing music w/others is still fun. 

Hi Mills College newmusic list.

-Derek
_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage.
http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic



      

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Thu Jun 12 10:51:02 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:51:02 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <825384.62109.qm@web63714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <825384.62109.qm@web63714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806121051uc4e011fgd5048abc5495cb06@mail.gmail.com>

>Deerhoof spent many, many yrs being a local band playing local shows to
nobody.  They released records nationally, but they were a "local >band."
But then they obviously got a lot of things together (music being just one),
and now they are a professional worldwide rock juggernaut.  >They've done
it, IMO, without selling out anything with regards to their art.  How'd they
do it?  I must have been really difficult!  I don't think I could >admire
them more than I do.


Deerhoof I always thought of as an example of a 'perfect storm' of a very
original inventive sound  -- a unique mix of pop and experimental
that attracts a lot of different people  --  and obsessively hard work, with
a dash of being in the right place at the right time, and playing out a LOT
in many different situations.  They are so incredible to watch -- I've never
seen anyone play quite like Greg -  I think that may have something to do
with it. When you see them, they're so refreshingly unpretentious.


k




>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Derek Monypeny <dmonypeny at hotmail.com>
> To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:03:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock
>
>
> > From: "Matt Davignon" <mattdavignon at gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic]
> Flock> To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> ...And as a completely separate tangent, I've been trying to figure whether>
> the willingness to be critical about one's own work, and to go back to the>
> woodshed is what eventually becomes the difference between "bands" and>
> "local bands". (By "local bands", I'm not specifically referring to the Bay>
> Area.) What's the difference between Matmos and other musicians working in>
> sample-based electronics? Or between the Boredoms and local noise/rock>
> bands?
> There's more to it than just the willingness to be critical and woodshed.
> It's about who you know, etc.  But even the bands that are networked and
> connected have to deliver something in order to be "bands" (as opposed to
> "local bands").  To deliver something, you have to either have a
> dictatorship set up (and of course tons of the greatest music ever has been
> made under dictatorships), or you have to be critical about your own work,
> woodshed, communicate, and compromise.
>
> People tend to want to avoid conflict.  Add the +1000% sensitivity level of
> your typical music putz and you get lots of passive-aggresive scenarios.
> 'I'm a creative artist guy- watch how creatively I can fuck with you while
> protecting my ego.'
>
> It's not easy to make any record, go on any long tour, etc.  Not even a
> shitty one.  There are so many decisions that have to somehow be made.  I'm
> sure I'm not saying anything that you don't know already, but I didn't fully
> appreciate this for a long time.
>
> Deerhoof spent many, many yrs being a local band playing local shows to
> nobody.  They released records nationally, but they were a "local band."
> But then they obviously got a lot of things together (music being just one),
> and now they are a professional worldwide rock juggernaut.  They've done it,
> IMO, without selling out anything with regards to their art.  How'd they do
> it?  I must have been really difficult!  I don't think I could admire them
> more than I do.
>
> I say all this as a member of a "local band" that, IMO, has the potential
> to become a "band" were we ever able to navigate the various minefields
> (improvised exploding devices) that so far seem determined to keep us
> "local."  Whatever.  I'm most likely localband4life.  I'm pretty old.
> Playing music w/others is still fun.
>
> Hi Mills College newmusic list.
>
> -Derek
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage.
>
> http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocidTXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008
>  _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 11:24:01 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:24:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806121051uc4e011fgd5048abc5495cb06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <206638.92860.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

The ONLY answer is really lots of hard work. Outside of that, everything else is the "perfect storm" stuff kristin spoke about below.

But I think that the question is wrong. I think people need to realize that being a "successful" band (success being realtive - I'm just using the given of Deerhoof or Matmos as bottom-wrung examples) is about the same as being a professional basketball player. Lots of people want to be (and work as hard and are as good as anyone else) but the reality is that there are only a very few slots. And the number of those slots are diminishing.

An addendum to that. To be a "successful" also means dealing with endless "extra-musical" bullshit or hiring lawyers, accountants, managers, etc. to take SOME of the load. Successful music is about SUCCESS. That means business and the ladder and the american dream, etc., etc., etc. just as much as opening a restaurant or franchising a starbusk's does.

Wasn't to my liking. Gave up that BS long ago. I think it's silly shit and I'm just not interested. I'd rather spend what little time and resources I have working on making music I like and perfecting that. Yep, it means I have a day job. You'd be surprised how many "successful" musicians do. Matmos for instance have been employeed in day jobs throughout their success. All of ROVA except one (if I am remembering correctly) have day jobs and took the unique route of non-profitdom years ago (which is a whol different story). 

lance

ps - second kristin's words on deerhoof. Those guys and gals are great fun and good people.

--- On Thu, 6/12/08, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock
> To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 10:51 AM
> >Deerhoof spent many, many yrs being a local band playing
> local shows to
> nobody.  They released records nationally, but they were a
> "local >band."
> But then they obviously got a lot of things together (music
> being just one),
> and now they are a professional worldwide rock juggernaut. 
> >They've done
> it, IMO, without selling out anything with regards to their
> art.  How'd they
> do it?  I must have been really difficult!  I don't
> think I could >admire
> them more than I do.
> 
> 
> Deerhoof I always thought of as an example of a
> 'perfect storm' of a very
> original inventive sound  -- a unique mix of pop and
> experimental
> that attracts a lot of different people  --  and
> obsessively hard work, with
> a dash of being in the right place at the right time, and
> playing out a LOT
> in many different situations.  They are so incredible to
> watch -- I've never
> seen anyone play quite like Greg -  I think that may have
> something to do
> with it. When you see them, they're so refreshingly
> unpretentious.



      

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 12 11:33:39 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:33:39 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
Message-ID: <C476BA13.25359%21grand@21grand.org>

Weasel wrote:

i didn't find what we were doing to be musically incongruent in any way
whatsoever!

-- I'm guessing some of what Jacob was referring to was during the first set
when Mr. Butcher didn't play for an "extended" period of time, just stood
and listened, and later you did the same.

Of course, this goes back to one of those improv conventions where that
indicates something isn't working, and that in a small group, everyone
should, for the most part, be constantly playing except during solos.

Musically, I thought it was pretty great, and when it comes to down to it,
that is the goal, and if that requires not following the performative
conventions of improv, then so be it.  There were points where I had trouble
hearing Damon's bass, but that would be my only "complaint" as it were.

I think, to Mr. Butcher's credit, and the credit of the "community" - it was
cool to see him play a broad range of shows during his visit, and I hope
each had a good attendance.  I'd also like to publicly thank Tom Duff for
his assistance in making Mr. Butcher's visit possible.

One of the younger audience members at the Tuesday show at 21 Grand told me
last night at the Mute Socialite CD Release show that John Butcher is his
new hero.

sl



From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 12 12:01:42 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:01:42 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <C476C0A6.2535F%21grand@21grand.org>

The thing is there isn't just one "recipe for success" or if there is, the
combination of ingredients and preparation process is so complex that it
appears to be "luck"...it's a big gamble...and most of all, there is no
guarantee of even making a living or getting by.

I find it fascinating, because it really showcases the irrational
beliefs/unrealistic faith that are part of the human condition that I often
struggle to understand.

sl

Mr. Everett wrote:
Young, gifted and pretty is pretty much the recipe for sucess in the
biz---probably the only alternative is hard work, dilligent study and the
willinness to endlessly tour and promote at your own expense----but this is
nothing new!!
                   
Philip E.




From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Thu Jun 12 12:13:12 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:13:12 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <C476C0A6.2535F%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C476C0A6.2535F%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <A5629804-A030-47F1-95AE-D810C31703F7@balancepointacoustics.com>

Then there is the question of defining success. In this music I might  
say it is a simple as having musical ideas, the collaborators to  
realize or extend them, a space to perform and an interested audience.


On Jun 12, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:

> The thing is there isn't just one "recipe for success" or if there  
> is, the
> combination of ingredients and preparation process is so complex  
> that it
> appears to be "luck"...it's a big gamble...and most of all, there  
> is no
> guarantee of even making a living or getting by.
>
> I find it fascinating, because it really showcases the irrational
> beliefs/unrealistic faith that are part of the human condition that  
> I often
> struggle to understand.
>
> sl
>
> Mr. Everett wrote:
> Young, gifted and pretty is pretty much the recipe for sucess in the
> biz---probably the only alternative is hard work, dilligent study  
> and the
> willinness to endlessly tour and promote at your own expense----but  
> this is
> nothing new!!
>
> Philip E.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Thu Jun 12 12:16:18 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:16:18 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <206638.92860.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <ef1ad92c0806121051uc4e011fgd5048abc5495cb06@mail.gmail.com>
	<206638.92860.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806121216j40941124uf1365fc805ca6891@mail.gmail.com>

my current theory is that 2 paths to a a 'successful' cd

Path A: all 3 of these elements
--lots of hard work
--critically listening to your music as an audience member (and being
willing to shoot down or modify your own ideas)
--and really luck, that the idea you're working hard on is one that people
will actually listen to

Path B: Though a stroke of stroke of luck, you manage to land on some
accidental formula that simply blows peoples minds somehow. (Such as
Throbbing Gristle, etc.)

But this discussion is going off on a tangent into "success" (as in quitting
your day job and having legions of screaming fans).

I originally was musing over what makes a local band's cd sound "local".
Because of course, "bands" are local bands whose work has captured non-local
attention. If you were listen to the cd's that "bands" that they made when
they were "local bands", would you find certain qualities in common?

Matt

Lance <praemedia at yahoo.com> was like:

> The ONLY answer is really lots of hard work. Outside of that, everything
> else is the "perfect storm" stuff kristin spoke about below.
>
> But I think that the question is wrong. I think people need to realize that
> being a "successful" band (success being realtive - I'm just using the given
> of Deerhoof or Matmos as bottom-wrung examples) is about the same as being a
> professional basketball player. Lots of people want to be (and work as hard
> and are as good as anyone else) but the reality is that there are only a
> very few slots. And the number of those slots are diminishing.
>
> An addendum to that. To be a "successful" also means dealing with endless
> "extra-musical" bullshit or hiring lawyers, accountants, managers, etc. to
> take SOME of the load. Successful music is about SUCCESS. That means
> business and the ladder and the american dream, etc., etc., etc. just as
> much as opening a restaurant or franchising a starbusk's does.
>
> Wasn't to my liking. Gave up that BS long ago. I think it's silly shit and
> I'm just not interested. I'd rather spend what little time and resources I
> have working on making music I like and perfecting that. Yep, it means I
> have a day job. You'd be surprised how many "successful" musicians do.
> Matmos for instance have been employeed in day jobs throughout their
> success. All of ROVA except one (if I am remembering correctly) have day
> jobs and took the unique route of non-profitdom years ago (which is a whol
> different story).
>
> lance
>
> ps - second kristin's words on deerhoof. Those guys and gals are great fun
> and good people.

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 12:19:52 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:19:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Throbbing Flock
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806121216j40941124uf1365fc805ca6891@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469455.98391.qm@web51602.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I have a hard time defining Throbbing Gristle as "Successful."

They are more successful now than ever, but that took a lot of years and the obligatory COMEBACK.

lance

ps - warning, opinion ahead: have to say, the TG comeback has been the only one that has, so far, resulted in decent new output. 


--- On Thu, 6/12/08, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock
> To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 12:16 PM
> my current theory is that 2 paths to a a
> 'successful' cd
> 
> Path A: all 3 of these elements
> --lots of hard work
> --critically listening to your music as an audience member
> (and being
> willing to shoot down or modify your own ideas)
> --and really luck, that the idea you're working hard on
> is one that people
> will actually listen to
> 
> Path B: Though a stroke of stroke of luck, you manage to
> land on some
> accidental formula that simply blows peoples minds somehow.
> (Such as
> Throbbing Gristle, etc.)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 12 12:24:44 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:24:44 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Throbbing Flock
Message-ID: <C476C60C.25368%21grand@21grand.org>

The live recordings are far better than the studio ones, in my opinion.  The
first Throbbing Gristle I heard was a live bootleg.

sl



From weaselw at juno.com  Thu Jun 12 12:33:50 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:33:50 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
Message-ID: <20080612.123353.7764.21.weaselw@juno.com>

> -- I'm guessing some of what Jacob was referring to was during the 
> first set when Mr. Butcher didn't play for an "extended" period of
time, just 
> stood and listened, and later you did the same.

i never stopped playing because i "didn't know what to do" or i didn't
think the music was working.  

i stopped because there were points in the music where it made sense to
stop. it's called orchestration! (people should try it more often) i'm
sure john butcher thinking the same. there's no need for everybody to
play all the time when you have good music going on. when i wasn't
playing, they were doing just fine without me. 

a lot of musicians seem to think that when they sit out for, like, 20
seconds, they're really showing some major restraint. ha ha ha. try five
minutes some time . . . gasp!

> There were points where I had trouble hearing Damon's bass, but that
would be my only "complaint" as it 
> were.

i begged him to bring an amp, but he wouldn't do it. damon will say so
himself that not hearing the bass sometimes is part of the deal. the
contrabass is a lot quieter of an instrument than either the drums or the
saxophone. i have no interest in playing ppp on the drums for an entire
set. (take note of that people)

go fish out a late coltrane record and see if you can hear jimmy garrison
on it . . . not hearing the bass player is part of the jazz tradition. 

ww
____________________________________________________________
Smart Girls Secret Weapon
Read Unbiased Beauty Product Reviews, Get Helpful Tips, Tricks and Sam
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7U3yGR3e7mGGG1XwxHaCAYwPHQ2XJCK8J8MrMIjslkS5Kma/

From weaselw at juno.com  Thu Jun 12 12:34:53 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:34:53 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Throbbing Flock
Message-ID: <20080612.123456.7764.22.weaselw@juno.com>

i second this.

ww
 
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:24:44 -0700 Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>
writes:
> The live recordings are far better than the studio ones, in my 
> opinion.  The
> first Throbbing Gristle I heard was a live bootleg.
> 
> sl

 
____________________________________________________________
Smart Girls Secret Weapon
Read Unbiased Beauty Product Reviews, Get Helpful Tips, Tricks and Sam
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7U3xexxFiQhXzTitjXmnjB0BoSCWWjvcp5qVmiN2OHg67Lo/

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Thu Jun 12 12:41:04 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:41:04 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <A5629804-A030-47F1-95AE-D810C31703F7@balancepointacoustics.com>
References: <C476C0A6.2535F%21grand@21grand.org>
	<A5629804-A030-47F1-95AE-D810C31703F7@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806121241t6c790585rf848f12baca4b14b@mail.gmail.com>

i second that,

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Damon Smith <
damon at balancepointacoustics.com> wrote:

> Then there is the question of defining success. In this music I might
> say it is a simple as having musical ideas, the collaborators to
> realize or extend them, a space to perform and an interested audience.
>
>
> On Jun 12, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:
>
> > The thing is there isn't just one "recipe for success" or if there
> > is, the
> > combination of ingredients and preparation process is so complex
> > that it
> > appears to be "luck"...it's a big gamble...and most of all, there
> > is no
> > guarantee of even making a living or getting by.
> >
> > I find it fascinating, because it really showcases the irrational
> > beliefs/unrealistic faith that are part of the human condition that
> > I often
> > struggle to understand.
> >
> > sl
> >
> > Mr. Everett wrote:
> > Young, gifted and pretty is pretty much the recipe for sucess in the
> > biz---probably the only alternative is hard work, dilligent study
> > and the
> > willinness to endlessly tour and promote at your own expense----but
> > this is
> > nothing new!!
> >
> > Philip E.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> Damon Smith
>
> http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
> http://myspace.com/smithdamon
> New solo project:
> http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 12:46:30 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:46:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806121241t6c790585rf848f12baca4b14b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <132586.94888.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

i third that. does that mean the motion has passed?

all previous replies were responding to the specific idea of success already defined - "local band" versus ... well, i guess "national" band? "international" band? and where does the internationale really fit into all of this?

lance

(running away before i am busted as a commie terrorist or as a capitalist sympathizer)


--- On Thu, 6/12/08, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock
> To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 12:41 PM
> i second that,
> 
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Damon Smith <
> damon at balancepointacoustics.com> wrote:
> 
> > Then there is the question of defining success. In
> this music I might
> > say it is a simple as having musical ideas, the
> collaborators to
> > realize or extend them, a space to perform and an
> interested audience.
> >
> >


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Thu Jun 12 12:51:43 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:51:43 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <132586.94888.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <ef1ad92c0806121241t6c790585rf848f12baca4b14b@mail.gmail.com>
	<132586.94888.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806121251x1da679a3j6eeb788f31ef467c@mail.gmail.com>

> i third that. does that mean the motion has passed?

sorry, i need to stop responding to these emails while i'm at work, i always
subject you guys to halfassed distracted posts :)

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Praemedia <praemedia at yahoo.com> wrote:

> i third that. does that mean the motion has passed?
>
> all previous replies were responding to the specific idea of success
> already defined - "local band" versus ... well, i guess "national" band?
> "international" band? and where does the internationale really fit into all
> of this?
>
> lance
>
> (running away before i am busted as a commie terrorist or as a capitalist
> sympathizer)
>
>
> --- On Thu, 6/12/08, kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Flock
> > To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 12:41 PM
> > i second that,
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Damon Smith <
> > damon at balancepointacoustics.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Then there is the question of defining success. In
> > this music I might
> > > say it is a simple as having musical ideas, the
> > collaborators to
> > > realize or extend them, a space to perform and an
> > interested audience.
> > >
> > >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>  _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 12 12:52:06 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:52:06 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Flock
Message-ID: <C476CC76.2536E%21grand@21grand.org>

Not sure, Billy Bragg covered it on an album I got in high school ... It is
certainly rousing!  It comes up in Lars Von Trier's "The Kingdom"...the
second part of which is finally available on DVD for US audiences.

sl

Lance wrote:
and where does the internationale really fit into all of this?



From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 13:01:54 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <C476CC76.2536E%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <164049.32603.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

The Kingdom. Worst. Lars. Von. Trier. EVAR.

and somehow, the American version was worse.

VHS version has been available for a while now, but I don't think anybody uses those anymore. Who stole my betacam?

lance

ps - aside from ubuweb, www.surrealmoviez.info has some great unavailable films. downsides are registration required and torrents. 


--- On Thu, 6/12/08, Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org> wrote:

> From: Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>
> Subject: [NewMusic]  Flock
> To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 12:52 PM
> Not sure, Billy Bragg covered it on an album I got in high
> school ... It is
> certainly rousing!  It comes up in Lars Von Trier's
> "The Kingdom"...the
> second part of which is finally available on DVD for US
> audiences.
> 
> sl


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Thu Jun 12 13:03:05 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:03:05 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <20080612.123353.7764.21.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20080612.123353.7764.21.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9E1B5877-4B8A-4619-97C2-711E6B5FCDC6@balancepointacoustics.com>

On Jun 12, 2008, at 12:33 PM, weasel walter wrote:

> i begged him to bring an amp, but he wouldn't do it. damon will say so
> himself that not hearing the bass sometimes is part of the deal. the
> contrabass is a lot quieter of an instrument than either the drums  
> or the
> saxophone. i have no interest in playing ppp on the drums for an  
> entire
> set. (take note of that people)

This would have been a better concert at acoustic bass volume, End of  
story.  Butcher has way more going on at that dynamic and his work is  
all about overtones, which get disrupted by the amp. It was still  
good, and I just used the computer when it got loud.

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From michaelz at zoka.com  Thu Jun 12 13:18:39 2008
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:18:39 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <206638.92860.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <206638.92860.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0624089fc47732c23e4e@[192.168.0.2]>

On 6/12/08, Praemedia wrote:

>Yep, it means I have a day job. You'd be surprised how many 
>"successful" musicians do.

Not surprising after reading about a report released today:

>"Artists in the Workforce: 1990-2005," released Thursday by the NEA, 
>is a 140-page quantification of the state of the country's artists, 
>from the total who call themselves artists (around 2 million, 
>separated into 11 categories) to the locations where they're most 
>likely to settle - such as New York, of course, and Los Angeles.

>According to the NEA, artists earn some $70 billion annually, but 
>have a median income of $34,800, well under the average for 
>"professionals." Only one out of eight actors works full-time, and 
>just one out of four musicians. The "struggling," if not the 
>starving artist, is both stereotype and fact. NEA chairman Dana 
>Gioia believes that Washington needs to regard them with the same 
>concern as it does other workers.

Full story:
<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_en_ot/artists_by_the_numbers_2>


MZ


--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From tbickley at metatronpress.com  Thu Jun 12 13:31:44 2008
From: tbickley at metatronpress.com (Tom Bickley)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:31:44 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <p0624089fc47732c23e4e@[192.168.0.2]>
References: <206638.92860.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<p0624089fc47732c23e4e@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <043E83EE-1778-42FD-988C-FEB00B283F8E@metatronpress.com>

You can get the whole report as a pdf from
http://www.nea.gov/research/ResearchReports.html
There are other items that may be of interest there too. At least the  
folks there (where I used to work) are trying to get word out about  
the reality of life in the arts in America. -Tom

On Jun 12, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Michael Zelner wrote:

> On 6/12/08, Praemedia wrote:
>
>> Yep, it means I have a day job. You'd be surprised how many
>> "successful" musicians do.
>
> Not surprising after reading about a report released today:
>
>> "Artists in the Workforce: 1990-2005," released Thursday by the NEA,
>> is a 140-page quantification of the state of the country's artists,
>> from the total who call themselves artists (around 2 million,
>> separated into 11 categories) to the locations where they're most
>> likely to settle - such as New York, of course, and Los Angeles.
>
>> According to the NEA, artists earn some $70 billion annually, but
>> have a median income of $34,800, well under the average for
>> "professionals." Only one out of eight actors works full-time, and
>> just one out of four musicians. The "struggling," if not the
>> starving artist, is both stereotype and fact. NEA chairman Dana
>> Gioia believes that Washington needs to regard them with the same
>> concern as it does other workers.
>
> Full story:
> <http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_en_ot/ 
> artists_by_the_numbers_2>
>
>
> MZ
>
>
> --------------michaelz at zoka.com---
>              Michael Zelner
> ---Oakland CA USA------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 13:32:06 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] The 32nd Annual Report
Message-ID: <405098.44310.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

The Mission will be youtube-ized.

Video of a recent TG show, sliced up into convenient song format:

http://alicerabbit.blogspot.com/2008/06/live-review-throbbing-gristle-paris.html

currently a NSFW header on the Alice Rabbit blog. watch your heads when surfing folks and keep your elbows inside the tubes at all times.

lance


      

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 12 13:32:16 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:32:16 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Flockumentary Procedure
Message-ID: <C476D5E0.25378%21grand@21grand.org>

No, the next step would be to put it to a vote, to which people could vote
yes, no, abstain, or emphatically abstain ... Which essentially means "this
isn't a motion we should be considering.

sl

Lance wrote:

i third that. does that mean the motion has passed?



From jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 15:03:39 2008
From: jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com (Jacob Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:03:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <164049.32603.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <120396.54874.qm@web58014.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I liked The Kingdom.  Totally bizarre, and freaky, and
cheesy.  and...vontrierish.




--- Praemedia <praemedia at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The Kingdom. Worst. Lars. Von. Trier. EVAR.
> 
> and somehow, the American version was worse.
> 
> VHS version has been available for a while now, but
> I don't think anybody uses those anymore. Who stole
> my betacam?
> 
> lance
> 
> ps - aside from ubuweb, www.surrealmoviez.info has
> some great unavailable films. downsides are
> registration required and torrents. 
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 6/12/08, Sarah - 21 Grand
> <21grand at 21grand.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>
> > Subject: [NewMusic]  Flock
> > To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
> > Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 12:52 PM
> > Not sure, Billy Bragg covered it on an album I got
> in high
> > school ... It is
> > certainly rousing!  It comes up in Lars Von
> Trier's
> > "The Kingdom"...the
> > second part of which is finally available on DVD
> for US
> > audiences.
> > 
> > sl
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 


Jacob Lindsay
http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44


      

From jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 15:23:53 2008
From: jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com (Jacob Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:23:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <20080612.123353.7764.21.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <664496.39895.qm@web58006.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I think Damon sounded fine without an amp.  It's okay
if he got covered up some of the time.  I've really
been of the mind lately that folks should play at
whatever volume they want to.  If you are a mature
musician and thinking musically, then you get to make
your own decision about how loud to play, what to
play, how to play.  What bugs me is when one person
plays loud so then other people play loud and then so
the first person plays louder and then...on and
on....for no musical reason but just b/c they're
thinking "oh i can't be heard now b/c assholes playing
too loud" and then asshole thinks "oh now shithead is
playing too loud so i can't be heard".  It's okay if
one person plays loud and another is quiet, as long as
both musicians understand what they are doing that's
great.  The world is not balanced.

As far as the show...I felt like the first set was
definitely a getting to know you type of set, working
out ideas, balance, etc.  The second set came together
a lot more in terms of balance, movement, ideas.. and
at the end really got smoking!!!



--- weasel walter <weaselw at juno.com> wrote:

> > There were points where I had trouble hearing
> Damon's bass, but that
> would be my only "complaint" as it 
> > were.
> 
> i begged him to bring an amp, but he wouldn't do it.
> damon will say so
> himself that not hearing the bass sometimes is part
> of the deal. the
> contrabass is a lot quieter of an instrument than
> either the drums or the
> saxophone. i have no interest in playing ppp on the
> drums for an entire
> set. (take note of that people)
> 
> go fish out a late coltrane record and see if you
> can hear jimmy garrison
> on it . . . not hearing the bass player is part of
> the jazz tradition. 
> 
> ww
>
____________________________________________________________
> Smart Girls Secret Weapon
> Read Unbiased Beauty Product Reviews, Get Helpful
> Tips, Tricks and Sam
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7U3yGR3e7mGGG1XwxHaCAYwPHQ2XJCK8J8MrMIjslkS5Kma/
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 


Jacob Lindsay
http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44


      

From weaselw at juno.com  Thu Jun 12 15:51:10 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:51:10 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
Message-ID: <20080612.160646.7764.26.weaselw@juno.com>

> This would have been a better concert at acoustic bass volume, End 
> of story.  

we agree to disagree. it would just be more typical if so. i suppose i
like to err on the side of not being typical, whereas you come to things
with set expectations more often. like i said, your attitude will
probably get you much further in the scene . . . 

ya see damon, you don't have to have the amp on the whole time. get it?
if it gets loud, ya turn it on. it's not like we played forte the whole
time. 3/4ths of the concert was ppp-mp (with some sfz, thank you). 

> Butcher has way more going on at that dynamic and his work 
> is all about overtones, which get disrupted by the amp. It was still  
> good, and I just used the computer when it got loud.

when it got loud, you could have not played as well. 

if you want to hear a john butcher solo concert at ppp-pp, go see a john
butcher solo concert. 

ww
____________________________________________________________
Beauty Product Reviews
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From weaselw at juno.com  Thu Jun 12 16:06:43 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:06:43 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
Message-ID: <20080612.160646.7764.28.weaselw@juno.com>

thanks for writing this jacob. sometimes i feel like an idiot for having
to defend myself so much. 

i thought damon sounded fine too. it's just that when we played f-ff
(rarely got to ff as it was, and no fff at all imho), an acoustic bass
just cannot compete, period. it just doesn't have the volume. damon knows
this and accepts it. if john and i have that capability on both of our
instruments and feel like playing it, as you say, we should do that if we
want. if we do that for the whole concert, obviously there's no point to
have damon there, but we didn't do that! in fact, we barely did it! 

john played some lovely music at during the few f-ff segments, so i'm not
complaining. yes, he can play overtones all friggin' day at p-pp, but he
can also play the saxophone! gosh! we got to hear him do that for a few
minutes. gee whiz. imagine that. 

there was no sustained segment where i dominated the volume of the group.
i only played as loud as butcher at the loudest points. i've got way more
firepower than what i used at that gig and everybody knows it. ("just
because you have a big dick, doesn't mean you have to do porn", to quote
kumar) if i thought something good was happening and i was at risk of
covering it, i either reduced my velocity or volume or stopped playing. 

i could totally sit there with the recording and explain exactly what i
was thinking and what motivated me to do at at every single point because
that's the kind of guy i am. i did what i wanted to do and i hope the
overall experience was worthwhile for the musicians and audience alike.
it seemed like it, at least to some of us. 

i play the drum kit and i play the fuck out of it. i will not sit at gigs
and rattle ashtrays for 70 minutes when there's potential for more music
to be made. if you want gramma to sit there hitting her pots and pans
with toothpicks for an hour, call somebody else! 

ww

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Jacob Lindsay
<jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com> writes:
> I think Damon sounded fine without an amp.  It's okay
> if he got covered up some of the time.  I've really
> been of the mind lately that folks should play at
> whatever volume they want to.  If you are a mature
> musician and thinking musically, then you get to make
> your own decision about how loud to play, what to
> play, how to play.  What bugs me is when one person
> plays loud so then other people play loud and then so
> the first person plays louder and then...on and
> on....for no musical reason but just b/c they're
> thinking "oh i can't be heard now b/c assholes playing
> too loud" and then asshole thinks "oh now shithead is
> playing too loud so i can't be heard".  It's okay if
> one person plays loud and another is quiet, as long as
> both musicians understand what they are doing that's
> great.  The world is not balanced.
> 
> As far as the show...I felt like the first set was
> definitely a getting to know you type of set, working
> out ideas, balance, etc.  The second set came together
> a lot more in terms of balance, movement, ideas.. and
> at the end really got smoking!!!
____________________________________________________________
Sweepstakes!!! 
Enter for your chance to WIN one of hundreds of daily prizes.
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From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 16:20:48 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] soundbutcher
In-Reply-To: <20080612.160646.7764.28.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <151030.79028.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> i will
> not sit at gigs
> and rattle ashtrays for 70 minutes when there's
> potential for more music
> to be made. if you want gramma to sit there hitting her
> pots and pans
> with toothpicks for an hour, call somebody else! 

Gino is my gramma?!!!!

this changes everything....

lance

(calculating missed xmas/birthday gifts)


      

From weaselw at juno.com  Thu Jun 12 16:26:49 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:26:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] soundbutcher
Message-ID: <20080612.162651.7764.30.weaselw@juno.com>

kiss your gramma. she nice.

ww
 
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Praemedia <praemedia at yahoo.com>
writes:
> Gino is my gramma?!!!!
> 
> this changes everything....
> 
> lance
> 
> (calculating missed xmas/birthday gifts)
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> 
 
____________________________________________________________
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From weaselw at juno.com  Thu Jun 12 16:45:09 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:45:09 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] soundbutcher
Message-ID: <20080612.164510.7764.37.weaselw@juno.com>

my comment about ashtry rattling was not intended as a slight towards
gino.

ww
____________________________________________________________
Click to consolidate your debt in minutes, stop late or over-limit fees, pay less. 
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2bkshsAOctaXFXBADqyZY4rzq1IoNhBRHEjhXs51PePN18/

From campaudj at comcast.net  Thu Jun 12 17:08:26 2008
From: campaudj at comcast.net (Don Campau)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:08:26 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] peter plonsky
Message-ID: <00d001c8cce9$9b20e650$0c00a8c0@ownerbe6d90f9c>

Does anyone remember Peter Plonsky? He was a very unique and eccentric vocalist/turntablist who performed in the Bay Area some years ago.
He recorded one bizarre LP, "Hairy Vibe Opus 30" that originally came out on cassette. There was rumor that he recorded sessions for a 1750 Arch LP but I cannot confirm that.

There is also another tape "Op. 34 A Zenoxious Wuorinaise At The Boulesque + On The Bay" that I found on Discogs.

Anyone know what happened to him?


From weaselw at juno.com  Thu Jun 12 17:22:13 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:22:13 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] peter plonsky
Message-ID: <20080612.172216.7764.48.weaselw@juno.com>

i'm dying to hear "hairy vibe" since william winant mentioned it to me.
there's a bootleg lp of it around. 

plonsky still lives in the same apartment in the tenderloin and very,
very occasionally comes to new music shows. 

ww
 
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:08:26 -0700 "Don Campau" <campaudj at comcast.net>
writes:
> Does anyone remember Peter Plonsky? He was a very unique and 
> eccentric vocalist/turntablist who performed in the Bay Area some 
> years ago.
> He recorded one bizarre LP, "Hairy Vibe Opus 30" that originally 
> came out on cassette. There was rumor that he recorded sessions for 
> a 1750 Arch LP but I cannot confirm that.
> 
> There is also another tape "Op. 34 A Zenoxious Wuorinaise At The 
> Boulesque + On The Bay" that I found on Discogs.
> 
> Anyone know what happened to him? 
____________________________________________________________
Click here for low prices on a huge selection of popcorn poppers!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mS8Sv9VupabpxwPDztyMKbipTst3FMVd1CVCEuJrDirfCLk/

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 17:27:12 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?Sm9uIFJhc2tpbg==?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:27:12 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] peter plonsky
In-Reply-To: <00d001c8cce9$9b20e650$0c00a8c0@ownerbe6d90f9c>
References: <00d001c8cce9$9b20e650$0c00a8c0@ownerbe6d90f9c>
Message-ID: <1652003431-1213316830-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1165271003-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I saw some memorable shows at Mills College he was involved with. One that I especially enjoyed was him rubbing his ear and than vocalsing the sounds her heard.. Better than analog synths

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Don Campau" <campaudj at comcast.net>

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:08:26 
To:"Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Subject: [NewMusic] peter plonsky


Does anyone remember Peter Plonsky? He was a very unique and eccentric vocalist/turntablist who performed in the Bay Area some years ago.
He recorded one bizarre LP, "Hairy Vibe Opus 30" that originally came out on cassette. There was rumor that he recorded sessions for a 1750 Arch LP but I cannot confirm that.

There is also another tape "Op. 34 A Zenoxious Wuorinaise At The Boulesque + On The Bay" that I found on Discogs.

Anyone know what happened to him?

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 12 17:36:33 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?Sm9uIFJhc2tpbg==?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:36:33 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <C476C0A6.2535F%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C476C0A6.2535F%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <1512131597-1213317389-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-726078308-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Or even mastering an instrument.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:01:42 
To:<newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock


The thing is there isn't just one "recipe for success" or if there is, the
combination of ingredients and preparation process is so complex that it
appears to be "luck"...it's a big gamble...and most of all, there is no
guarantee of even making a living or getting by.

I find it fascinating, because it really showcases the irrational
beliefs/unrealistic faith that are part of the human condition that I often
struggle to understand.

sl

Mr. Everett wrote:
Young, gifted and pretty is pretty much the recipe for sucess in the
biz---probably the only alternative is hard work, dilligent study and the
willinness to endlessly tour and promote at your own expense----but this is
nothing new!!
                   
Philip E.



_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Thu Jun 12 18:08:47 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:08:47 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <A5629804-A030-47F1-95AE-D810C31703F7@balancepointacoustics.com>
References: <C476C0A6.2535F%21grand@21grand.org>
	<A5629804-A030-47F1-95AE-D810C31703F7@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806121808q5c9d875cu2c6b1e6fbf740c4b@mail.gmail.com>

I felt "successful" in my previous bubble - the electronic free-improv
bubble. Certainly not famous or well-known or with any level of 'mastery',
but I was basically making the sounds I wanted to make, and I'm still happy
with the cd's. I guess that's my definition of success - that your product
makes the point it's trying to make.

Now I'm trying to re-enter an old bubble I left about a decade ago, the
"make a non-free-improv cd at home using multiple instruments" bubble. It's
going to be years and years before I ever feel 'successful' here. I have to
learn about the different ways to record guitars so they sound good, and how
to make a bass part and keyboard part fit together.

It's simultaneously humbling and invigorating. On one hand, how can I call
myself a musician and not know this shit already? On the other hand, the
change of direction feels like stepping into a new uncluttered area.

Matt

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Damon Smith <
damon at balancepointacoustics.com> wrote:

> Then there is the question of defining success. In this music I might
> say it is a simple as having musical ideas, the collaborators to
> realize or extend them, a space to perform and an interested audience.
>
>

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Thu Jun 12 19:58:57 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:58:57 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <20080612.160646.7764.26.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20080612.160646.7764.26.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C399BA5D-D58E-4916-9A81-1CB311F2A692@balancepointacoustics.com>

On Jun 12, 2008, at 3:51 PM, weasel walter wrote:

> ya see damon, you don't have to have the amp on the whole time. get  
> it?
> if it gets loud, ya turn it on. it's not like we played forte the  
> whole
> time. 3/4ths of the concert was ppp-mp (with some sfz, thank you).

- Yeah, that doesn't work - just having the pick up on the bass  
interferes with the acoustic sound.
Detailed improv gigs are best with acoustic bass.

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From djcypod at gmail.com  Thu Jun 12 22:49:45 2008
From: djcypod at gmail.com (beau)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:49:45 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806121808q5c9d875cu2c6b1e6fbf740c4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C476C0A6.2535F%21grand@21grand.org>
	<A5629804-A030-47F1-95AE-D810C31703F7@balancepointacoustics.com>
	<c70e517b0806121808q5c9d875cu2c6b1e6fbf740c4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc5507fa0806122249i1bcb8bc2k2f96ba5be6d44614@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.jasonfreeman.net/flock/

This looks like a fun project, I reallly used to enjoy collaberating
with the dance department at Mills. Seems like the dancers should have
some lights on their hands. They do a lot of spinning, but the camera
only sees their heads; which stay in the same place.


-
b
http://cypod.blogspot.com/



On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Matt Davignon <mattdavignon at gmail.com> wrote:
> I felt "successful" in my previous bubble - the electronic free-improv
> bubble. Certainly not famous or well-known or with any level of 'mastery',
> but I was basically making the sounds I wanted to make, and I'm still happy
> with the cd's. I guess that's my definition of success - that your product
> makes the point it's trying to make.
>
> Now I'm trying to re-enter an old bubble I left about a decade ago, the
> "make a non-free-improv cd at home using multiple instruments" bubble. It's
> going to be years and years before I ever feel 'successful' here. I have to
> learn about the different ways to record guitars so they sound good, and how
> to make a bass part and keyboard part fit together.
>
> It's simultaneously humbling and invigorating. On one hand, how can I call
> myself a musician and not know this shit already? On the other hand, the
> change of direction feels like stepping into a new uncluttered area.
>
> Matt
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Damon Smith <
> damon at balancepointacoustics.com> wrote:
>
>> Then there is the question of defining success. In this music I might
>> say it is a simple as having musical ideas, the collaborators to
>> realize or extend them, a space to perform and an interested audience.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From liberatednsf at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 07:54:04 2008
From: liberatednsf at yahoo.com (andrew wilshusen)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
Message-ID: <879968.11656.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Matt D. postulated:
>Coming up with concepts is way easier than figuring out ways to make them
>into music, in a way that works. Wasn't that what got this whole discussion
>started?

in my experience, i found it extremely easy to come up with things that others accept as music.? hell, as a drummer, all you do is go boom, snap, boom-boom, snap and everybody's all happy as clams.? Now I see that what you're getting at is a little more complicated and I agree with you that turning new concepts into something others accept as music is more complicated.
But I do things that sound very musical to me all the time (in fact everything?I do I'm trying to make music.? I think bouncing tennis balls in a wok lid sounds cool.? if i don't like the sound, i won't do it for long)?and yet?the last three times I've played someone comes up to me afterwards and smugly says, "That's interesting, but you can't really call it music, can you?"
at first, i was kinda placating this with, "I'm more interested in exploring the complexities and possibilities of sounds than I am in making music."? but then I know that's bullshit, cause i'm not hearing what I do as random sounds.? so now I challenge this question with "why not?" and get stupid untrue responses like, "you can't repeat it" "You can't sing it" and "it's too constant."
andrew


Ev oida oti oudev oida 



http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
http://oudevoida.blogspot.com


      

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Fri Jun 13 08:30:17 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:30:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <120396.54874.qm@web58014.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <298547.52844.qm@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

i second jacob's statement.
  he was trying to do something different (than what he ususally does in film).
  and it was made for tv, and i think that's part of the message.
   
  pg

Jacob Lindsay <jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com> wrote:
  I liked The Kingdom. Totally bizarre, and freaky, and
cheesy. and...vontrierish.




--- Praemedia 
wrote:

> The Kingdom. Worst. Lars. Von. Trier. EVAR.
> 
> and somehow, the American version was worse.
> 
> VHS version has been available for a while now, but
> I don't think anybody uses those anymore. Who stole
> my betacam?
> 
> lance
> 
> ps - aside from ubuweb, www.surrealmoviez.info has
> some great unavailable films. downsides are
> registration required and torrents. 
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 6/12/08, Sarah - 21 Grand
> <21grand at 21grand.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>
> > Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
> > To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
> > Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 12:52 PM
> > Not sure, Billy Bragg covered it on an album I got
> in high
> > school ... It is
> > certainly rousing! It comes up in Lars Von
> Trier's
> > "The Kingdom"...the
> > second part of which is finally available on DVD
> for US
> > audiences.
> > 
> > sl
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 


Jacob Lindsay
http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44



_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Fri Jun 13 08:41:14 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:41:14 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] 2 fun covers
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806130841l1bee233cqa33f6c1e61a38ce6@mail.gmail.com>

Alanis Morrisette sings "My Humps"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=W91sqAs-_-g

Scala choir sings "Smells like teen spirit" (perhaps the best version I've
heard - just ignore the cheesy conductor)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=of8x1bS2qtA&feature=related

From pnyboer at slambassador.com  Fri Jun 13 09:35:59 2008
From: pnyboer at slambassador.com (Peter Nyboer)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:35:59 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] moog guitar
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1213329604.6747.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1213329604.6747.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <A5C0CACA-A13A-465F-A263-793F19905B70@slambassador.com>

oh, by the way, but my point of it being part of a lineage of  
products inspired by spinal tap...it's Digidesign that has the  
"Eleven" product that is amp simulation...so, yes, there is a lineage  
beginning.


From gcremaschi at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 13 11:17:37 2008
From: gcremaschi at hotmail.com (George Cremaschi)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:17:37 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Flock
In-Reply-To: <879968.11656.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <879968.11656.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU136-W387E197826243DA5D66BD4C1AC0@phx.gbl>


Andrew wrote:

>someone comes up to me afterwards and smugly says, "That's interesting, 
>but you can't really call it music, can you?"

Oh man, my days of calmly trying to work through this type of question are
over. Nowadays, I usually crucify the occasional schmuck who tries to ruin my 
post gig mood with this kind of b.s., and by the end of the exchange they're almost 
always apologizing for being so narrow-minded and ignorant, and probably
wishing they had asked me what kind of strings I use instead...

-George

_________________________________________________________________
Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. Add now.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Fri Jun 13 11:24:49 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:24:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Vive la Flock Von Trier!
Message-ID: <C4780981.253BE%21grand@21grand.org>

Well there you go ... You're outvoted Lance ... 3-1 in favor of the Kingdom.
And vaguely bringing it back to the topic from which this thread diverged,
the latest Von Trier "Boss of it All" is pretty interesting - it uses a
computer program to determine the shots, though with directorial oversight,
thus Von Trier can say "No, next one." if the computer program's suggestion
doesn't work.  The narrative ties in to this structure in various ways.

sl

PG wrote:
i second jacob's statement.
  he was trying to do something different (than what he ususally does in
film).
  and it was made for tv, and i think that's part of the message.
   
  pg

Jacob Lindsay <jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com> wrote:
  I liked The Kingdom. Totally bizarre, and freaky, and
cheesy. and...vontrierish.




--- Praemedia 
wrote:

> The Kingdom. Worst. Lars. Von. Trier. EVAR.
> 
> and somehow, the American version was worse.
> 
> VHS version has been available for a while now, but
> I don't think anybody uses those anymore. Who stole
> my betacam?
> 
> lance
> 



From jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 12:11:08 2008
From: jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com (Jacob Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:11:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <C4780981.253BE%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <570891.56664.qm@web58015.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I really enjoyed the Boss of it All.  I love the
character of the actor.  He is so sincerely trying to
play his part despite the consequences, and I think
this really fits with the theme of the film.

What I really like about Von Trier is that he clearly
sets out to do something and then he clearly does it.

I still haven't seen Dancer in the Dark, 'cause I
haven't been able to get over the Bjork thing, and I
did try to watch Epidemic, one of his early movies,
which I didn't make it through, but beyond that I
almost always enjoy his stuff:
Boss of it all
The Kingdom
Dogville
Element of Crime
The Five Obstructions
Breaking the Waves



--- Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org> wrote:

> Well there you go ... You're outvoted Lance ... 3-1
> in favor of the Kingdom.
> And vaguely bringing it back to the topic from which
> this thread diverged,
> the latest Von Trier "Boss of it All" is pretty
> interesting - it uses a
> computer program to determine the shots, though with
> directorial oversight,
> thus Von Trier can say "No, next one." if the
> computer program's suggestion
> doesn't work.  The narrative ties in to this
> structure in various ways.
> 
> sl
> 
> PG wrote:
> i second jacob's statement.
>   he was trying to do something different (than what
> he ususally does in
> film).
>   and it was made for tv, and i think that's part of
> the message.
>    
>   pg
> 
> Jacob Lindsay <jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   I liked The Kingdom. Totally bizarre, and freaky,
> and
> cheesy. and...vontrierish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Praemedia 
> wrote:
> 
> > The Kingdom. Worst. Lars. Von. Trier. EVAR.
> > 
> > and somehow, the American version was worse.
> > 
> > VHS version has been available for a while now,
> but
> > I don't think anybody uses those anymore. Who
> stole
> > my betacam?
> > 
> > lance
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 


Jacob Lindsay
http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44


      

From michaelz at zoka.com  Fri Jun 13 12:24:25 2008
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:24:25 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] A: It's all in your head
Message-ID: <p062408abc4787987d3a9@[192.168.0.2]>

Q: What do Mandarin, improvisation, and Eye Of The Tiger have in common?


<http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-06/st_3smartthings>

From electric.tokyo at gmail.com  Fri Jun 13 12:26:01 2008
From: electric.tokyo at gmail.com (Travis Johns)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:26:01 -0400
Subject: [NewMusic] A: It's all in your head
In-Reply-To: <p062408abc4787987d3a9@192.168.0.2>
References: <p062408abc4787987d3a9@192.168.0.2>
Message-ID: <d3165c060806131226g208548f0n7c3efc82724c85ac@mail.gmail.com>

That and vowels. Can't forget those.



On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Michael Zelner <michaelz at zoka.com> wrote:
> Q: What do Mandarin, improvisation, and Eye Of The Tiger have in common?
>
>
> <http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-06/st_3smartthings>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From electric.tokyo at gmail.com  Fri Jun 13 12:28:22 2008
From: electric.tokyo at gmail.com (Travis Johns)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:28:22 -0400
Subject: [NewMusic] A: It's all in your head
In-Reply-To: <d3165c060806131226g208548f0n7c3efc82724c85ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p062408abc4787987d3a9@192.168.0.2>
	<d3165c060806131226g208548f0n7c3efc82724c85ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3165c060806131228t5866e902t35ebc91d85e7518d@mail.gmail.com>

Apologies, I've been in the trenches of public education all day.
Teacher sarcasm abating... :)



On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Travis Johns <electric.tokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> That and vowels. Can't forget those.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Michael Zelner <michaelz at zoka.com> wrote:
>> Q: What do Mandarin, improvisation, and Eye Of The Tiger have in common?
>>
>>
>> <http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-06/st_3smartthings>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>

From gcremaschi at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 13 12:31:57 2008
From: gcremaschi at hotmail.com (George Cremaschi)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:31:57 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <C4780981.253BE%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C4780981.253BE%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <BLU136-W38DC8A2D12A2F4C9F380A2C1AC0@phx.gbl>



> Well there you go ... You're outvoted Lance ... 3-1 in favor of the Kingdom.

Wait, I'm pinch-hitting a homer for Lance's team to bring it to 3-2...anyone else?
It may be that it needed to be seen as a TV program, one episode per week,
but sitting through a four-hour film version at the Castro a few years back
was the single most tedious evening of cinema of my entire life. The only
reason I stayed was that my date was really into it, and I was being polite,
or as they say these days, 'supportive'.


> the latest Von Trier "Boss of it All" is pretty interesting - it uses a
> computer program to determine the shots, though with directorial oversight,

Is the film itself interesting, or is the technique interesting? I guess that's the underlying 
question that comes up for me with this thread - should an art work ultimately transcend
whatever bells and whistles are used to create it, and stand on it's own? If, for example,
using weather pattern charts as compositional grids (an actual technique that someone I 
know uses) produces pieces that sound like first-year student electronic compositions, does 
it matter if it's an 'interesting' idea? 

-George









_________________________________________________________________
Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. Add now.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Fri Jun 13 12:42:48 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:42:48 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Vive la Flock Von Trier!
Message-ID: <C4781BC8.253C8%21grand@21grand.org>

Well, George, you know me ...if it were just the technique or structure that
was interesting, and the resulting work wasn't, I'd say as much.  No, the
film is interesting, and it uses the technique well.  Narratively, the story
could serve as a metaphor for the filmmaking process, in terms of
directorial control and getting the people you work with to do what you want
them to do. It covers the all-too common phenomena in social interactions of
"good cop/bad cop" and passive-aggressive leadership.

sl



George wrote:
> the latest Von Trier "Boss of it All" is pretty interesting - it uses a
> computer program to determine the shots, though with directorial oversight,

Is the film itself interesting, or is the technique interesting? I guess
that's the underlying
question that comes up for me with this thread - should an art work
ultimately transcend
whatever bells and whistles are used to create it, and stand on it's own?
If, for example,
using weather pattern charts as compositional grids (an actual technique
that someone I 
know uses) produces pieces that sound like first-year student electronic
compositions, does 
it matter if it's an 'interesting' idea? 



From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Fri Jun 13 12:43:45 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:43:45 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <570891.56664.qm@web58015.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <C4780981.253BE%21grand@21grand.org>
	<570891.56664.qm@web58015.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806131243v1efab62bm8b17511db6ef0073@mail.gmail.com>

Dancer in the Dark i really admire technically. 100 DV Cams at a time, so
100 different synced angles to choose from (I remember when I heard this, i
felt sorry for the editing team) How is at least one other camera never in
the shot? Don't know,

k

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Jacob Lindsay <jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> I really enjoyed the Boss of it All.  I love the
> character of the actor.  He is so sincerely trying to
> play his part despite the consequences, and I think
> this really fits with the theme of the film.
>
> What I really like about Von Trier is that he clearly
> sets out to do something and then he clearly does it.
>
> I still haven't seen Dancer in the Dark, 'cause I
> haven't been able to get over the Bjork thing, and I
> did try to watch Epidemic, one of his early movies,
> which I didn't make it through, but beyond that I
> almost always enjoy his stuff:
> Boss of it all
> The Kingdom
> Dogville
> Element of Crime
> The Five Obstructions
> Breaking the Waves
>
>
>
> --- Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org> wrote:
>
> > Well there you go ... You're outvoted Lance ... 3-1
> > in favor of the Kingdom.
> > And vaguely bringing it back to the topic from which
> > this thread diverged,
> > the latest Von Trier "Boss of it All" is pretty
> > interesting - it uses a
> > computer program to determine the shots, though with
> > directorial oversight,
> > thus Von Trier can say "No, next one." if the
> > computer program's suggestion
> > doesn't work.  The narrative ties in to this
> > structure in various ways.
> >
> > sl
> >
> > PG wrote:
> > i second jacob's statement.
> >   he was trying to do something different (than what
> > he ususally does in
> > film).
> >   and it was made for tv, and i think that's part of
> > the message.
> >
> >   pg
> >
> > Jacob Lindsay <jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >   I liked The Kingdom. Totally bizarre, and freaky,
> > and
> > cheesy. and...vontrierish.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Praemedia
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The Kingdom. Worst. Lars. Von. Trier. EVAR.
> > >
> > > and somehow, the American version was worse.
> > >
> > > VHS version has been available for a while now,
> > but
> > > I don't think anybody uses those anymore. Who
> > stole
> > > my betacam?
> > >
> > > lance
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
>
>
> Jacob Lindsay
> http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 12:45:23 2008
From: jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com (Jacob Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:45:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <BLU136-W38DC8A2D12A2F4C9F380A2C1AC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <11073.98753.qm@web58014.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


--- George Cremaschi <gcremaschi at hotmail.com> wrote:
,
> but sitting through a four-hour film version at the
> Castro a few years back
> was the single most tedious evening of cinema of my
> entire life. 

Sitting in a theater for 4 hours is going to be hard
for anything.  I watched it straight through but in th
comfort of my home and it was perfect.

> Is the film itself interesting, or is the technique
> interesting? 

Both.  He takes an interesting idea and makes it work.

Jacob Lindsay
http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44


      

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Fri Jun 13 12:52:22 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:52:22 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Vive la Flock Von Trier!
Message-ID: <C4781E06.253CB%21grand@21grand.org>

Jacob wrote:
I really enjoyed the Boss of it All.  I love the
character of the actor.  He is so sincerely trying to
play his part despite the consequences, and I think
this really fits with the theme of the film.

-- At the end, he kinda reminded me of Damon ... I don't want to spoil it
for those who want to see it but haven't yet.

What I really like about Von Trier is that he clearly
sets out to do something and then he clearly does it.

-- I agree, and I'd add that he does it without being didactic and
hamfisted.

I still haven't seen Dancer in the Dark, 'cause I
haven't been able to get over the Bjork thing, and I
did try to watch Epidemic, one of his early movies,
which I didn't make it through,

-- I tried watching Dancer in the Dark and fell asleep. Maybe it was the
Bjork thing ... Zentropa is great, as well, and I liked Manderlay, though a
number of people didn't, and the way it treats the subject of slavery might
be too much for some folks, though I read it as also metaphorical of
America's international politics and colonialism.

sl




From 21grand at 21grand.org  Fri Jun 13 12:57:44 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:57:44 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  peter plonsky
Message-ID: <C4781F48.253CD%21grand@21grand.org>

Wow, we have a cassette of something by this guy sitting around our
apartment somewhere, and I knew absolutely nothing about him. I don't even
know the circumstances whereby we obtained said item.

Thanks for the info,

sl

Don Campau wrote:

Does anyone remember Peter Plonsky? He was a very unique and eccentric
vocalist/turntablist who performed in the Bay Area some years ago.
He recorded one bizarre LP, "Hairy Vibe Opus 30" that originally came out on
cassette. There was rumor that he recorded sessions for a 1750 Arch LP but I
cannot confirm that.

There is also another tape "Op. 34 A Zenoxious Wuorinaise At The Boulesque +
On The Bay" that I found on Discogs



From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Fri Jun 13 12:58:18 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:58:18 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <C4781E06.253CB%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C4781E06.253CB%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806131258o7f45ca74o18eef023a814029b@mail.gmail.com>

  >I tried watching Dancer in the Dark and fell asleep. Maybe it was the
Bjork thing ...


I was prepared to not like her at all, but was REALLY surprised by her
acting talent, especially in last 20 min -- Her terror is so crazily sincere
that I totally lost it. If you fell asleep, you'd miss that --- probably her
best moments in the whole film.


k

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>
wrote:

> Jacob wrote:
> I really enjoyed the Boss of it All.  I love the
> character of the actor.  He is so sincerely trying to
> play his part despite the consequences, and I think
> this really fits with the theme of the film.
>
> -- At the end, he kinda reminded me of Damon ... I don't want to spoil it
> for those who want to see it but haven't yet.
>
> What I really like about Von Trier is that he clearly
> sets out to do something and then he clearly does it.
>
> -- I agree, and I'd add that he does it without being didactic and
> hamfisted.
>
> I still haven't seen Dancer in the Dark, 'cause I
> haven't been able to get over the Bjork thing, and I
> did try to watch Epidemic, one of his early movies,
> which I didn't make it through,
>
> -- I tried watching Dancer in the Dark and fell asleep. Maybe it was the
> Bjork thing ... Zentropa is great, as well, and I liked Manderlay, though a
> number of people didn't, and the way it treats the subject of slavery might
> be too much for some folks, though I read it as also metaphorical of
> America's international politics and colonialism.
>
> sl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From michaelz at zoka.com  Fri Jun 13 13:04:04 2008
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:04:04 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806131243v1efab62bm8b17511db6ef0073@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C4780981.253BE%21grand@21grand.org>
	<570891.56664.qm@web58015.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ef1ad92c0806131243v1efab62bm8b17511db6ef0073@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p062408acc47880ed8f80@[192.168.0.2]>

On 6/13/08, kristin miltner wrote:

>Dancer in the Dark i really admire technically. 100 DV Cams at a time, so
>100 different synced angles to choose from (I remember when I heard this, i
>felt sorry for the editing team) How is at least one other camera never in
>the shot? Don't know,

Because they were set up as in this photo:

<http://unit.bjork.com/specials/ui/DITD/pictures/ditd10.jpg>

MZ

--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Fri Jun 13 13:08:29 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:08:29 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  Vive la Flock Von Trier!
Message-ID: <C47821CD.253CF%21grand@21grand.org>

I think one of the special features on the DVD is about this ... I vaguely
recall waking up and seeing Darren watching it.  Darren likes watching the
special features ...all the special features.

sl

MZ wrote:
On 6/13/08, kristin miltner wrote:

>Dancer in the Dark i really admire technically. 100 DV Cams at a time, so
>100 different synced angles to choose from (I remember when I heard this, i
>felt sorry for the editing team) How is at least one other camera never in
>the shot? Don't know,

Because they were set up as in this photo:

<http://unit.bjork.com/specials/ui/DITD/pictures/ditd10.jpg>

MZ



From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Fri Jun 13 13:12:28 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:12:28 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <C47821CD.253CF%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <AcjNkT7xfZL4bjmEEd208AAKleCHnA==>
	<C47821CD.253CF%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806131312m45765e51odb03c3e6c1ab4f0c@mail.gmail.com>

oh i see. i had the impression that they were x-y-z axis. guess not,

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>
wrote:

> I think one of the special features on the DVD is about this ... I vaguely
> recall waking up and seeing Darren watching it.  Darren likes watching the
> special features ...all the special features.
>
> sl
>
> MZ wrote:
> On 6/13/08, kristin miltner wrote:
>
> >Dancer in the Dark i really admire technically. 100 DV Cams at a time, so
> >100 different synced angles to choose from (I remember when I heard this,
> i
> >felt sorry for the editing team) How is at least one other camera never in
> >the shot? Don't know,
>
> Because they were set up as in this photo:
>
> <http://unit.bjork.com/specials/ui/DITD/pictures/ditd10.jpg>
>
> MZ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From pnyboer at slambassador.com  Fri Jun 13 13:52:00 2008
From: pnyboer at slambassador.com (Peter Nyboer)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:52:00 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] jewel cases?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1213329604.6747.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1213329604.6747.newmusic@music.mills.edu>
Message-ID: <2C28C35D-8285-4C3B-A2E3-184F7F351D3F@slambassador.com>

does anyone have a pile of jewel cases to shed?  I used to, got rid  
of them a couple years ago, and, well, now I need them!

Pete

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 14:19:37 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:19:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Lance Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806131312m45765e51odb03c3e6c1ab4f0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <750124.50128.qm@web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

i am taking directorial/dictatorial control and declaring The Kingdom awful! 

;-)

Teasing aside, I think Epidemic is worth seeing. Also, the Bjork thing didn't stop me from seeing dance in the dark - the MUSICAL (as in A movie/stage musical) did (yes, funny thing perhaps), but in the end I am glad I did. Was worth it. Agree with Kristen about the last 20 minutes or so, not just for her acting.

Also, I highly highly recommend the Five Obstructions. Really great work.

To add fodder (flocker?) to the Von Trier pile, he opened up a porn side to his film company. Nothing (I know of) he directed, just to distribute and sell others' films. Heard he sold the company recently. Anyone else hear about this? Anyone braved any of the films? (scarey thought)

lance


      

From letucepry at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 14:46:34 2008
From: letucepry at yahoo.com (Ron Lettuce)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] A: It's all in your head
Message-ID: <610009.26304.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

"When musicians improvise, the lateral prefrontal areas of their brains ? responsible for planning and self-censorship ? basically turn off."
lol..
I wonder if they have ever done a study on whether they ever?turn back on again...



----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Zelner <michaelz at zoka.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:24:25 PM
Subject: [NewMusic] A: It's all in your head

Q: What do Mandarin, improvisation, and Eye Of The Tiger have in common?


<http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-06/st_3smartthings>
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Fri Jun 13 16:15:07 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <BLU136-W38DC8A2D12A2F4C9F380A2C1AC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <463594.75765.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Like George, the first time I saw it was at the Castro...and I didn't like it much. It did seem an eternity watching those giant blocks. I had a similar experience with Berlin Alexander Platz (15 hours)...
   
  A few years later, I thought I'd go back to it (mostly because my viewing of the episodes at the castro were out of order). I rented it, watched it from the first episode onward, and viewed them in hour increments....
   
  It worked for me...I don't have time to respond in any greater depth at the moment, but what I'm more interested in is how many times in life I apprehended something that didn't fit, I couldn't get to it, whatever, but a few years might go by and you approach it from a different vantage point and it all fits in a new way.  
   
  

George Cremaschi <gcremaschi at hotmail.com> wrote:
  

> Well there you go ... You're outvoted Lance ... 3-1 in favor of the Kingdom.

Wait, I'm pinch-hitting a homer for Lance's team to bring it to 3-2...anyone else?
It may be that it needed to be seen as a TV program, one episode per week,
but sitting through a four-hour film version at the Castro a few years back
was the single most tedious evening of cinema of my entire life. The only
reason I stayed was that my date was really into it, and I was being polite,
or as they say these days, 'supportive'.


> the latest Von Trier "Boss of it All" is pretty interesting - it uses a
> computer program to determine the shots, though with directorial oversight,

Is the film itself interesting, or is the technique interesting? I guess that's the underlying
question that comes up for me with this thread - should an art work ultimately transcend
whatever bells and whistles are used to create it, and stand on it's own? If, for example,
using weather pattern charts as compositional grids (an actual technique that someone I
know uses) produces pieces that sound like first-year student electronic compositions, does
it matter if it's an 'interesting' idea?

-George









_________________________________________________________________
Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. Add now.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 16:35:51 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (Jon Raskin)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
Message-ID: <924420.83782.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

There were quite a few things?about Dancer in the Dark? I didn't like.
The setting of this in?the Pacific Northwest coupled with east German village life. The death sentence end was as a different?movie?that didn't?seem to tie in to?previous movie at all.? Isolation is a major theme of his but it always felt?to me that it was?a hammer he used because he didn't havev a good script or plot.? He really seems to like getting his actors to over act.?They always did things that were out of character or against their best interest and?when in doubt make it mental illness.? 
?
The reworking?of 7 brides as a grimy railroad number was fun.? His negative view of American life shows through in the movie to good affect as it did in the Dogville.? He didn't have to worry about the look and feel of America in Dogville?and could concentrate on his musings on power.
?
My favorite film of his is the Five Obstructions?and Jorgen Leth is fascinating dealing with Von Trier "film techniques"? It?is worth watching?to add to the?"concept vs art" part of this thread.
?Jon Raskin 



----- Original Message ----
From: kristin miltner <miltnerunit at gmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:58:18 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!

? >I tried watching Dancer in the Dark and fell asleep. Maybe it was the
Bjork thing ...


I was prepared to not like her at all, but was REALLY surprised by her
acting talent, especially in last 20 min -- Her terror is so crazily sincere
that I totally lost it. If you fell asleep, you'd miss that --- probably her
best moments in the whole film.


k

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand <21grand at 21grand.org>
wrote:

> Jacob wrote:
> I really enjoyed the Boss of it All.? I love the
> character of the actor.? He is so sincerely trying to
> play his part despite the consequences, and I think
> this really fits with the theme of the film.
>
> -- At the end, he kinda reminded me of Damon ... I don't want to spoil it
> for those who want to see it but haven't yet.
>
> What I really like about Von Trier is that he clearly
> sets out to do something and then he clearly does it.
>
> -- I agree, and I'd add that he does it without being didactic and
> hamfisted.
>
> I still haven't seen Dancer in the Dark, 'cause I
> haven't been able to get over the Bjork thing, and I
> did try to watch Epidemic, one of his early movies,
> which I didn't make it through,
>
> -- I tried watching Dancer in the Dark and fell asleep. Maybe it was the
> Bjork thing ... Zentropa is great, as well, and I liked Manderlay, though a
> number of people didn't, and the way it treats the subject of slavery might
> be too much for some folks, though I read it as also metaphorical of
> America's international politics and colonialism.
>
> sl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 16:47:49 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:47:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
In-Reply-To: <924420.83782.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <413945.11144.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


> always did things that were out of character or against
> their best interest 

i think many people do things against their interest in real life (often thinking they are doing the opposite) so I can't fault him for that. 

lance


      

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 16:52:30 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?Sm9uIFJhc2tpbg==?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:52:30 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!
Message-ID: <1859373379-1213401144-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-795325901-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

That's true but the decisions didn't seem. To come from the actors but the directors heavy hand.  The movie was sophisticated dogma.

------Original Message------
From: Praemedia
Sender: newmusic-bounces at music.mills.edu
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
ReplyTo: praemedia at yahoo.com
ReplyTo: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
Sent: Jun 13, 2008 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] Vive la Flock Von Trier!


> always did things that were out of character or against
> their best interest 

i think many people do things against their interest in real life (often thinking they are doing the opposite) so I can't fault him for that. 

lance


      
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


From praemedia at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 17:23:11 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:23:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Dogme K. Dick on the BANM(ovie)L
In-Reply-To: <1859373379-1213401144-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-795325901-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <531832.73039.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> from the actors but the directors heavy hand.  The movie
> was sophisticated dogma.

or perhaps you mean dogme?

that's it. i am out of (bad) jokes for the week.

speaking of the five obstructions, just saw a scanner darkly. even rotoscoped, i can't deal with keanoooooo. some of the voiceovers near the end pretty much killed the film. it didn't help that my other arch nemesis (ms. ryder) was in the film. worth seeing for downey, jr. and harrelson. those two were stunning, though to be fair, harrelson is the same charcter he plays in most films (himself).

lance


      

From jfheule at gmail.com  Fri Jun 13 20:33:46 2008
From: jfheule at gmail.com (jacob felix heule)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:33:46 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <20080611.200239.7764.13.weaselw@juno.com>
References: <20080611.200239.7764.13.weaselw@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9c5cfa860806132033j6380b4a5p47d7267577002012@mail.gmail.com>

"creating an intersection of languages" is just what i was talking
about. john butcher is known for playing a certain way, and weasel
walter is known for playing a certain way which is not the same. i
don't really need to define these, do i? obviously both musicians can
play in many different ways, but their strengths and reputations focus
on certain areas that don't overlap all that much within the spectrum
of freely improvised music.

there were plenty of parts where weasel was playing fast and loud
weasel walter quartet style drums. sometimes john joined with loud
free jazzy sax, sometimes he didn't play anything, sometimes he played
something barely audible, sometimes he played along but subverted
other stylistic expectations. the inverse also applies. john would get
into quiet multiphonic stuff and weasel would scrape cymbals, or not
play, or play sforzando roto-tom, etc.

not playing is of course fine with me. there was nothing too unusual
about weasel standing in the corner for some of the set. there was a
time or two when john sat out during a time it really appeared the
weasel and damon expected or wanted him to be playing, but that's fine
too. that was one of the more interesting parts of the set, in a
certain sense.

it was interesting to see these styles come together. it was
interesting to see the musicians pull toward each others styles, or
resist doing so. weasel sounds best playing fast and loud and dense,
and i'm glad he played that way for a lot of the set. if weasel's idea
of playing acoustic-bass-volume-music or "john butcher's greatest
hits" is an old woman hitting pots and pans with toothpicks for a
straight hour, i think i'm pretty glad he didn't try to do that (ha ha
ha). john can be a convincing free jazz saxophonist, but he sounds
best playing different stuff. it was very interesting to see how he
flirted with, and resisted, playing hard free jazz with weasel. (i
hope it's not controversial to identify weasel with free jazz. i think
he has done this himself many times in the past, and it's just a
convenient term for what i'm talking about.)

would this have been a better concert at acoustic bass volume?
probably not. weasel sounds best when he's playing louder shit, and
weasel was playing the gig. he probably did the right thing (playing
with his strengths). we got to see the butcher/robair duo on a couple
other occasions (it was really really good).

i could hear damon just fine most of the time. a bit buried at times,
but that's where the bass generally is. i said he was mediating
because he was playing along well with john and weasel both, jumping
between the disparate elements of the other musicians' styles, and
without the reluctance that john, for example, seemed to show toward
playing fast and loud free jazz for much of the set.

this is beside the point, but there are "static spots" in most of the
music i love the most, especially my own. i also like when the whole
band lays out at the same time. both illustrated here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TsgupFCU3s

jacob

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:02 PM, weasel walter <weaselw at juno.com> wrote:
> i didn't find what we were doing to be musically incongruent in any way
> whatsoever!

> there were no static spots.

-- 
http://heule.us & http://myspace.com/jacobfelix
http://ettrick.org & http://myspace.com/ettrick

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Fri Jun 13 20:45:22 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:45:22 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
In-Reply-To: <9c5cfa860806132033j6380b4a5p47d7267577002012@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080611.200239.7764.13.weaselw@juno.com>
	<9c5cfa860806132033j6380b4a5p47d7267577002012@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F98D430A-9443-4148-9FBF-ED0FCCE37DDB@balancepointacoustics.com>

On Jun 13, 2008, at 8:33 PM, jacob felix heule wrote:

>  john butcher is known for playing a certain way, and weasel
> walter is known for playing a certain way which is not the same. i
> don't really need to define these, do i?

I think there is a lot of overlap between John's recent work like  
"Way Out Northwest" and "Geometry of Sentiment" and recent projects  
Weasel and I have done, like Jus, the trio we had with Charity,  
Lichens and many others.
For the most part I think it did work.

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From weaselw at juno.com  Sat Jun 14 01:17:26 2008
From: weaselw at juno.com (weasel walter)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 01:17:26 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] sfsound+butcher review
Message-ID: <20080614.012716.7764.128.weaselw@juno.com>

thanks for the observations, jacob. you have a lot of good points.

ww
____________________________________________________________
Fabulous Spa Getaway!
Enter for your chance to WIN great beauty prizes everyday!
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From aliciabyer at gmail.com  Sat Jun 14 17:24:29 2008
From: aliciabyer at gmail.com (Alicia Byer)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:24:29 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] A: It's all in your head
In-Reply-To: <610009.26304.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <610009.26304.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4854613D.6010707@gmail.com>

Hahahahahaha

They must not, or I wouldn't make so many social faux pas's-- That's it, 
I'm blaming all my problems on improvising!!!

alicia

Ron Lettuce wrote:
> "When musicians improvise, the lateral prefrontal areas of their brains ? responsible for planning and self-censorship ? basically turn off."
> lol..
> I wonder if they have ever done a study on whether they ever turn back on again...
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Michael Zelner <michaelz at zoka.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:24:25 PM
> Subject: [NewMusic] A: It's all in your head
>
> Q: What do Mandarin, improvisation, and Eye Of The Tiger have in common?
>
>
> <http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-06/st_3smartthings>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>   


From tim at perkis.com  Tue Jun 17 00:44:35 2008
From: tim at perkis.com (Tim Perkis)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:44:35 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
Message-ID: <48576B63.3070809@perkis.com>

all my pithy comments have been disappearing into nowhere, I never see 
them appear on the list ... so this is just a test.

From bthrew at gmail.com  Tue Jun 17 05:54:00 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (barry threw)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:54:00 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <48576B63.3070809@perkis.com>
References: <48576B63.3070809@perkis.com>
Message-ID: <77E77F0F-18CC-47C7-BAF4-D578C3EF6FF0@gmail.com>

sometimes if you are accidently hitting reply, and replying from an  
address the list doesn't recognize, it won't accept your messages.  
apple mail often has this issue.

bt

On Jun 17, 2008, at 12:44 AM, Tim Perkis wrote:

> all my pithy comments have been disappearing into nowhere, I never see
> them appear on the list ... so this is just a test.
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic



barry threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA
Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
Web: www.barrythrew.com


From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Tue Jun 17 11:58:26 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:58:26 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <77E77F0F-18CC-47C7-BAF4-D578C3EF6FF0@gmail.com>
References: <48576B63.3070809@perkis.com>
	<77E77F0F-18CC-47C7-BAF4-D578C3EF6FF0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806171158x723f251cubbfb4b90714dd495@mail.gmail.com>

Also, with Gmail, I don't often see emails that I send to groups - only when
people reply to them.

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:54 AM, barry threw <bthrew at gmail.com> wrote:

> sometimes if you are accidently hitting reply, and replying from an
> address the list doesn't recognize, it won't accept your messages.
> apple mail often has this issue.
>
> bt
>
> On Jun 17, 2008, at 12:44 AM, Tim Perkis wrote:
>
> > all my pithy comments have been disappearing into nowhere, I never see
> > them appear on the list ... so this is just a test.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>
>
> barry threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
> San Francisco, CA
> Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
> Web: www.barrythrew.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>

From katttsammon at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 17 13:16:26 2008
From: katttsammon at hotmail.com (Kattt Sammon)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:16:26 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806171158x723f251cubbfb4b90714dd495@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48576B63.3070809@perkis.com>
	<77E77F0F-18CC-47C7-BAF4-D578C3EF6FF0@gmail.com> 
	<c70e517b0806171158x723f251cubbfb4b90714dd495@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W85AD629198D6CF0A8C7C2A2A80@phx.gbl>


tim

you can always double check @ the banewmus archive because all posts get posted to it via real time

http://music.mills.edu/pipermail/newmusic/

k

> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:58:26 -0700
> From: mattdavignon at gmail.com
> To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] test
> 
> Also, with Gmail, I don't often see emails that I send to groups - only when
> people reply to them.
> 
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:54 AM, barry threw <bthrew at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > sometimes if you are accidently hitting reply, and replying from an
> > address the list doesn't recognize, it won't accept your messages.
> > apple mail often has this issue.
> >
> > bt
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2008, at 12:44 AM, Tim Perkis wrote:
> >
> > > all my pithy comments have been disappearing into nowhere, I never see
> > > them appear on the list ... so this is just a test.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> >
> >
> > barry threw
> > Media Art and Technology
> >
> > San Francisco, CA
> > Work: 857-544-3967
> > Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
> > Web: www.barrythrew.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

_________________________________________________________________
Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_062008

From letucepry at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 17 15:53:49 2008
From: letucepry at yahoo.com (Ron Lettuce)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] test
Message-ID: <351203.90052.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

hey, THAT's cool...and all this time I've been trying to keep up with all of these e-mails when I could just go there and read by thread...
lettuce



----- Original Message ----
From: Kattt Sammon <katttsammon at hotmail.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:16:26 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] test


tim

you can always double check @ the banewmus archive because all posts get posted to it via real time

http://music.mills.edu/pipermail/newmusic/

k

> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:58:26 -0700
> From: mattdavignon at gmail.com
> To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] test
> 
> Also, with Gmail, I don't often see emails that I send to groups - only when
> people reply to them.
> 
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:54 AM, barry threw <bthrew at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > sometimes if you are accidently hitting reply, and replying from an
> > address the list doesn't recognize, it won't accept your messages.
> > apple mail often has this issue.
> >
> > bt
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2008, at 12:44 AM, Tim Perkis wrote:
> >
> > > all my pithy comments have been disappearing into nowhere, I never see
> > > them appear on the list ... so this is just a test.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> >
> >
> > barry threw
> > Media Art and Technology
> >
> > San Francisco, CA
> > Work: 857-544-3967
> > Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
> > Web: www.barrythrew.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

_________________________________________________________________
Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_062008
_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Tue Jun 17 16:00:33 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:00:33 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  test
Message-ID: <C47D9021.254E9%21grand@21grand.org>

The archive also holds a vast repository of flame wars past ... These recent
ones are mere skirmishes compared to the epic crusades of early 2003.

sl 

Kattt wrote:
tim

you can always double check @ the banewmus archive because all posts get
posted to it via real time

http://music.mills.edu/pipermail/newmusic/

k



From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Tue Jun 17 16:23:29 2008
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:23:29 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <C47D9021.254E9%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C47D9021.254E9%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <059785B5-97C1-432E-AEFD-291C36D85A4C@matthewgoodheart.com>

Oh . . .  but for the great Smith/Plonsey war of January '02. . . .  
the BA-NEWMUS list-scape was forever changed . . . those were the  
days, young folk, those were the days. . .


On Jun 17, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:

> The archive also holds a vast repository of flame wars past ...  
> These recent
> ones are mere skirmishes compared to the epic crusades of early 2003.
>
> sl
>
> Kattt wrote:
> tim
>
> you can always double check @ the banewmus archive because all posts  
> get
> posted to it via real time
>
> http://music.mills.edu/pipermail/newmusic/
>
> k
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart





From katttsammon at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 17 16:41:40 2008
From: katttsammon at hotmail.com (Kattt Sammon)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:41:40 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <059785B5-97C1-432E-AEFD-291C36D85A4C@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <C47D9021.254E9%21grand@21grand.org>
	<059785B5-97C1-432E-AEFD-291C36D85A4C@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W5365225B0C05DF74F97DACA2A80@phx.gbl>


and how can one forget the william osbourne manifestos in 2001.



> From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
> To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:23:29 -0700
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] test
> 
> Oh . . .  but for the great Smith/Plonsey war of January '02. . . .  
> the BA-NEWMUS list-scape was forever changed . . . those were the  
> days, young folk, those were the days. . .
> 
> 
> On Jun 17, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:
> 
> > The archive also holds a vast repository of flame wars past ...  
> > These recent
> > ones are mere skirmishes compared to the epic crusades of early 2003.
> >
> > sl
> >
> > Kattt wrote:
> > tim
> >
> > you can always double check @ the banewmus archive because all posts  
> > get
> > posted to it via real time
> >
> > http://music.mills.edu/pipermail/newmusic/
> >
> > k
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> Matthew Goodheart
> composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
> matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
> http://matthewgoodheart.com
> http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

_________________________________________________________________
Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back!
http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashback

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Tue Jun 17 16:52:23 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:52:23 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  test
Message-ID: <C47D9C47.254F4%21grand@21grand.org>

What about the mysterious Matthew Waterhorse, who appears to have moved on
to greener pastures?

sl

Kattt wrote:
and how can one forget the william osbourne manifestos in 2001.



From katttsammon at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 17 17:02:06 2008
From: katttsammon at hotmail.com (Kattt Sammon)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:02:06 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <C47D9C47.254F4%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C47D9C47.254F4%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W9EE770D6110518790E257A2AB0@phx.gbl>


hi sarah

i don't remember the age of waterhorse.

maybe because i defected after the osbourne manifestos...in 2000 or 2001 - can't remember. 

k







> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:52:23 -0700
> From: 21grand at 21grand.org
> To: newmusic at music.mills.edu
> Subject: [NewMusic]  test
> 
> What about the mysterious Matthew Waterhorse, who appears to have moved on
> to greener pastures?
> 
> sl
> 
> Kattt wrote:
> and how can one forget the william osbourne manifestos in 2001.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

_________________________________________________________________
The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i?m Talkathon.
http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving

From tbickley at metatronpress.com  Tue Jun 17 19:29:48 2008
From: tbickley at metatronpress.com (tbickley at metatronpress.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:29:48 +0100
Subject: [NewMusic] [BBC] Hear the computer's music
Message-ID: <200806180229.m5I2TmhY000138@cgiperl3.mh.bbc.co.uk>

Enjoy! -Tom

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7459848.stm

** Disclaimer **

The BBC is not responsible for the content of this e-mail, and anything written in this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views or opinions. Please note that neither the e-mail address nor name of the sender have been verified.


-------------- next part --------------
The BBC accepts no responsibility for this email. This email is generated by
a request on the BBC webserver. If you were not expecting this email, please
forward it to webweaver at bbc.co.uk including all headers from the email.

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Tue Jun 17 20:26:40 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:26:40 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <059785B5-97C1-432E-AEFD-291C36D85A4C@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <C47D9021.254E9%21grand@21grand.org>
	<059785B5-97C1-432E-AEFD-291C36D85A4C@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <1339123F-557A-438B-B8DF-8722EEA0D39A@balancepointacoustics.com>

I am glad things are more civil, but there were a lot of "elephants  
in the living room" in those days and a lot of things that just  
needed to be said by someone. So I would say those were ultimately  
productive- things are a lot less goofy around here these days.
At this point I can say I honestly feel  Dan's music and concept has  
a place in creative music, but I think there is much less on an  
international perception of Bay Area scene not being serious.

Obviously, it goes in cycles, Dan and others concepts were probably  
reactions to over serious situations just as I can say mine are at  
least partial reactions to mid 90s Bay Area goofball improv.

On Jun 17, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Matthew Goodheart wrote:

> Oh . . .  but for the great Smith/Plonsey war of January '02. . . .
> the BA-NEWMUS list-scape was forever changed . . . those were the
> days, young folk, those were the days. . .
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:
>
>> The archive also holds a vast repository of flame wars past ...
>> These recent
>> ones are mere skirmishes compared to the epic crusades of early 2003.
>>
>> sl
>>
>> Kattt wrote:
>> tim
>>
>> you can always double check @ the banewmus archive because all posts
>> get
>> posted to it via real time
>>
>> http://music.mills.edu/pipermail/newmusic/
>>
>> k
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> Matthew Goodheart
> composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
> matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
> http://matthewgoodheart.com
> http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From 21grand at 21grand.org  Tue Jun 17 20:39:13 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah Lockhart)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] test
Message-ID: <49267.67.101.148.43.1213760353.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>

speaking of elephants, wow, those William Osborne manifestos were
something!  I was unaware of these, until now.

Thanks Kattt, for the education!

sl

Damon wrote:
I am glad things are more civil, but there were a lot of "elephants
in the living room" in those days and a lot of things that just
needed to be said by someone.


From miltnerunit at gmail.com  Tue Jun 17 22:00:57 2008
From: miltnerunit at gmail.com (kristin miltner)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:00:57 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <49267.67.101.148.43.1213760353.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>
References: <49267.67.101.148.43.1213760353.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>
Message-ID: <ef1ad92c0806172200o7ef7ea86m9cc9671151c73cb7@mail.gmail.com>

i'd forgotten he threatened to shut down the list.  i took a quick peek at
some of the Feb '01 posts, kind of inspiring to see how a lot of us have
grown since then, no?
and i ran into a couple very well written and passionate responses to
wosborne by john shiurba and scott looney that made me laugh out loud.

k


On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Sarah Lockhart <21grand at 21grand.org> wrote:

> speaking of elephants, wow, those William Osborne manifestos were
> something!  I was unaware of these, until now.
>
> Thanks Kattt, for the education!
>
> sl
>
> Damon wrote:
> I am glad things are more civil, but there were a lot of "elephants
> in the living room" in those days and a lot of things that just
> needed to be said by someone.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



-- 
kristin miltner
audio professional
www.myspace.com/miltnerunit

From michaelz at zoka.com  Tue Jun 17 23:10:26 2008
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:10:26 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <351203.90052.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <351203.90052.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p062408d8c47e5713bce8@[192.168.0.2]>

On 6/17/08, Ron Lettuce wrote:

>hey, THAT's cool...and all this time I've been trying to keep up 
>with all of these e-mails when I could just go there and read by 
>thread...

Except for Sarah's messages, each of which starts a new thread. . .

MZ

--------------michaelz at zoka.com---
             Michael Zelner
---Oakland CA USA------------------

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 18 09:30:13 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:30:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] more lullabies
Message-ID: <213931.53222.qm@web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

from early computers - 

http://gizmodo.com/5017478/first-recording-of-computer-music-found-verdict-catchy-but-you-cant-dance-to-it



      

From gcremaschi at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 18 12:34:43 2008
From: gcremaschi at hotmail.com (George Cremaschi)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:34:43 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <C47D9C47.254F4%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C47D9C47.254F4%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <BLU136-W7CA64A02A751B7CF4161FC1AB0@phx.gbl>


Sarah wrote:

> What about the mysterious Matthew Waterhorse

Yes, Mr Waterhorse is truly memorable, particularly his trilogy
of scatological genius Ba-newmus 14059, 14060, and 14061.

-George







_________________________________________________________________
Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
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From bthrew at gmail.com  Wed Jun 18 17:18:21 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:18:21 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <ef1ad92c0806172200o7ef7ea86m9cc9671151c73cb7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49267.67.101.148.43.1213760353.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>
	<ef1ad92c0806172200o7ef7ea86m9cc9671151c73cb7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <487395B8-BA9E-4366-9751-3ECD63D66B34@gmail.com>

Luckily now its safe in the hands of...me.

If anyone finds problems in the archive let me know...the transfer  
over to mailman was a pretty large pain in the ass. There were a lot  
of things from the more obscure older lists that didn't make it quite  
right.

Actually, this kind of reminds me, I should back this sucker up at  
some point in my life. The server is very old. We were supposed to get  
a new one at some point.

bt


On Jun 17, 2008, at 10:00 PM, kristin miltner wrote:

> i'd forgotten he threatened to shut down the list.


From td at pixar.com  Wed Jun 18 21:49:32 2008
From: td at pixar.com (Tom Duff)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:49:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] test
In-Reply-To: <487395B8-BA9E-4366-9751-3ECD63D66B34@gmail.com>
References: <49267.67.101.148.43.1213760353.squirrel@webmail.21grand.org>
	<ef1ad92c0806172200o7ef7ea86m9cc9671151c73cb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<487395B8-BA9E-4366-9751-3ECD63D66B34@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0806182121240.18770@marvin.dynamic.pixar.com>


Fortunately, the Internet Archive has been running backups for you:  
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://music.mills.edu/pipermail/newmusic/
(The bad news is that they only make a copy every 2 months or so, and it
takes them 6 months to post it.)

How decrepit is your server?  I have a couple of newish boxes I've been
meaning to upgrade my old dual-processor servers to when I get a free day
or two.  Maybe the old ones would be useful to you. (One's a dual 750MHz
Coppermine, the other a dual 3GHz "Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU", whatever
that is.  I think both have 2GB main memory.  Either is more than capable
of running my Internet connection at full speed without sweating.)

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Barry Threw wrote:

> Luckily now its safe in the hands of...me.
> 
> If anyone finds problems in the archive let me know...the transfer  
> over to mailman was a pretty large pain in the ass. There were a lot  
> of things from the more obscure older lists that didn't make it quite  
> right.
> 
> Actually, this kind of reminds me, I should back this sucker up at  
> some point in my life. The server is very old. We were supposed to get  
> a new one at some point.

-- 
Tom Duff.  It doesn't look good for the little guy.

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 09:46:18 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
Message-ID: <679173.30695.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/live-nation-were-doing-everything-we-can-eliminate-jazz-american-culture/

who knew?

leonard cohen is always ahead of his time.

lance


      

From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Thu Jun 19 10:24:47 2008
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:24:47 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <679173.30695.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <679173.30695.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <06F45D6C-343B-4AD2-A9E6-858AC84B940B@matthewgoodheart.com>

If only we could eliminate American Culture from jazz, then maybe we'd  
have something. . .


On Jun 19, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Praemedia wrote:

>
> http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/live-nation-were-doing-everything-we-can-eliminate-jazz-american-culture/
>
> who knew?
>
> leonard cohen is always ahead of his time.
>
> lance
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart





From philipeverett at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 11:00:17 2008
From: philipeverett at yahoo.com (Philip Everett)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
Message-ID: <974528.3352.qm@web63710.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

And what pray tell would that be??
???????????????????????????????? Philip E.


----- Original Message ----
From: Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com>
To: praemedia at yahoo.com; Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:24:47 AM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz

If only we could eliminate American Culture from jazz, then maybe we'd? 
have something. . .


On Jun 19, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Praemedia wrote:

>
> http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/live-nation-were-doing-everything-we-can-eliminate-jazz-american-culture/
>
> who knew?
>
> leonard cohen is always ahead of his time.
>
> lance
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart




_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic



      

From michaelz at zoka.com  Thu Jun 19 10:59:59 2008
From: michaelz at zoka.com (Michael Zelner)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:59:59 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] Some press for Garden of Memory 2008
Message-ID: <p062408f2c4804cda5645@[192.168.0.2]>

Sounds of Summer Solstice Annual Garden of Memory concert features 
nearly 40 acts from spiritual to whimsical
<http://www.contracostatimes.com/search/ci_9564515>


CRITIC'S CHOICE
Garden of Memory
<http://www.eastbayexpress.com/events/garden_of_memory/Event?oid=729222>


From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Thu Jun 19 11:45:25 2008
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:45:25 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <974528.3352.qm@web63710.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <974528.3352.qm@web63710.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8EEEB9BA-D2A3-44ED-997D-C2DF721DBCD0@matthewgoodheart.com>

> And what pray tell would that be??
>                                  Philip E.


Well, aside from being facetious (corporate culture vs. real culture,  
blah blah), and being very old hat for this list. . . the over- 
simplified answer is "jass" moved from being a socially dangerous form  
of entertainment in the early part of the century, to destroying  
boundaries between high and low art in the post war period, to radical  
forms in the 50/60s which directly challenged social and political  
structure as well as cultural identity, to the present day santa- 
clausification all of that historical music into surface  
sentimentality and exoticism as a tool to mollify the affect of social  
liberalism in the monied classes.

Ja$$ will never scare the fuck out of the people: it IS the  
establishment, and as such is an extremely effective tool of social  
control; just like MLK, one can "exalt" oppressed culture by stripping  
it of its threatening character.

God Bless America's Classical Music; innovation is the tradition!



On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Philip Everett wrote:
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com>
> To: praemedia at yahoo.com; Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu 
> >
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:24:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
>
> If only we could eliminate American Culture from jazz, then maybe we'd
> have something. . .
>
>
> On Jun 19, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Praemedia wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/live-nation-were-doing-everything-we-can-eliminate-jazz-american-culture/
>>
>> who knew?
>>
>> leonard cohen is always ahead of his time.
>>
>> lance
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> Matthew Goodheart
> composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
> matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
> http://matthewgoodheart.com
> http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart





From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 19 11:51:56 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:51:56 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  the war on jazz
Message-ID: <C47FF8DC.255A8%21grand@21grand.org>

Honestly, I think music, in general, is at a disadvantage for scaring the
fuck out of the people ... Unless you combine it with flesh-eating bacteria.

sl

Matthew G. wrote:
Ja$$ will never scare the fuck out of the people: it IS the
establishment,



From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Thu Jun 19 12:12:16 2008
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:12:16 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <C47FF8DC.255A8%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C47FF8DC.255A8%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <E3F87499-3427-47E2-AD03-25152CF36E04@matthewgoodheart.com>

I agree; I don't think it's possible any more in a surface-listening,  
revolution-as-the-central-mythology culture.  On the other hand, I  
think the suppression of radical aspects of "jazz" is deliberate, just  
like suppression of labor history is; there's something about that is  
actually threatening, either to one's pocketbook or the view of one's  
place in the world.

On the other other hand, lots of folks seem scared of rap.


On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:

> Honestly, I think music, in general, is at a disadvantage for  
> scaring the
> fuck out of the people ... Unless you combine it with flesh-eating  
> bacteria.
>
> sl
>
> Matthew G. wrote:
> Ja$$ will never scare the fuck out of the people: it IS the
> establishment,
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart





From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 19 12:38:26 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:38:26 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  the war on jazz
Message-ID: <C48003C2.255B6%21grand@21grand.org>

Matt G:
 On the other hand, I
think the suppression of radical aspects of "jazz" is deliberate, just
like suppression of labor history is; there's something about that is
actually threatening, either to one's pocketbook or the view of one's
place in the world.

-- I'd like to agree with you on that, but I think it's more of a case of
history being written by winners, or focus on winners, and in the typical
American way, of focusing and foregrounding the winners - the wealthy and
market successes.

On the other other hand, lots of folks seem scared of rap.

-- to which I'd argue, that they're not scared of it for musical reasons,
but the fact that it is made by "poor blacks that do crimes" - and lyrically
is about said lifestyle. Though I guess we could debate whether that is part
of the "music" or not, and have another ever-so-fulfilling semantic debate.
I apparently am drawn to these.

sl



From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 13:30:49 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:30:49 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] predictions for the future
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806191330s4201d17fu568bc0cb306177f1@mail.gmail.com>

Boingboing had a link to this article by Kevin Kelly and Brian Eno,
each attempting to think of things that may happen in the future.

http://kk.org/ct2/2008/06/unthinkable-futures.php

Personally I think they're equally divided between thoughtful
submissions, wishful thinking, dystopian movie plots and David
Byrne-like silliness.

Still, it reminds me of a mental list I have for fashion predictions
for the next 10 years, which include leaving food on one's shirt, and
having one's fly down.

Matt

From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 13:32:20 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:32:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <C48003C2.255B6%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <461168.59826.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


> -- to which I'd argue, that they're not scared of
> it for musical reasons,
> but the fact that it is made by "poor blacks that do
> crimes" - and lyrically
> is about said lifestyle. 


very little of it is, though that side tends to be the most popular. is that any "scarier" than biting heads off bats? or etc., etc., etc.

you're right, it isn't really about the music, but please be careful how you generalize.

lance



      

From phil at philipgelb.com  Thu Jun 19 13:38:02 2008
From: phil at philipgelb.com (Philip Gelb)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:38:02 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <8EEEB9BA-D2A3-44ED-997D-C2DF721DBCD0@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <974528.3352.qm@web63710.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<8EEEB9BA-D2A3-44ED-997D-C2DF721DBCD0@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <929B156C-384D-414D-BFC7-B115892EB12E@philipgelb.com>

you left out the "republicanization" of jazz in the US during the  
reagan era when jazz became a throwback nostaligic music devoid of  
any sort of individuality or creativity, thus rendering it a museum  
object. No surprise that Wynton and Reagan were at the same time as  
they have the  same agenda.

Philip Gelb
vegetarian chef
shakuhachi player, teacher
phil at philipgelb.com
http://philipgelb.com
http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood
http://myspace.com/philipgelb
http://www.yelp.com/biz/in-the-mood-for-food-oakland

On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:45 AM, Matthew Goodheart wrote:

>> And what pray tell would that be??
>>                                  Philip E.
>
>
> Well, aside from being facetious (corporate culture vs. real culture,
> blah blah), and being very old hat for this list. . . the over-
> simplified answer is "jass" moved from being a socially dangerous form
> of entertainment in the early part of the century, to destroying
> boundaries between high and low art in the post war period, to radical
> forms in the 50/60s which directly challenged social and political
> structure as well as cultural identity, to the present day santa-
> clausification all of that historical music into surface
> sentimentality and exoticism as a tool to mollify the affect of social
> liberalism in the monied classes.
>
> Ja$$ will never scare the fuck out of the people: it IS the
> establishment, and as such is an extremely effective tool of social
> control; just like MLK, one can "exalt" oppressed culture by stripping
> it of its threatening character.
>
> God Bless America's Classical Music; innovation is the tradition!
>
>
>
> On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Philip Everett wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com>
>> To: praemedia at yahoo.com; Bay Area New Music Discussion Group  
>> <newmusic at music.mills.edu
>>>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:24:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
>>
>> If only we could eliminate American Culture from jazz, then maybe  
>> we'd
>> have something. . .
>>
>>
>> On Jun 19, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Praemedia wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/live-nation-were-doing- 
>>> everything-we-can-eliminate-jazz-american-culture/
>>>
>>> who knew?
>>>
>>> leonard cohen is always ahead of his time.
>>>
>>> lance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>> Matthew Goodheart
>> composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
>> matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
>> http://matthewgoodheart.com
>> http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
>> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
>> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
> Matthew Goodheart
> composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
> matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
> http://matthewgoodheart.com
> http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Thu Jun 19 13:40:23 2008
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:40:23 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <C48003C2.255B6%21grand@21grand.org>
References: <C48003C2.255B6%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <1D16F458-F4AB-4ADB-8DA4-A67ED6AD26CC@matthewgoodheart.com>

On Jun 19, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Sarah - 21 Grand wrote:

> On the other other hand, lots of folks seem scared of rap.
>
> -- to which I'd argue, that they're not scared of it for musical  
> reasons,
> but the fact that it is made by "poor blacks that do crimes" - and  
> lyrically
> is about said lifestyle. Though I guess we could debate whether that  
> is part
> of the "music" or not, and have another ever-so-fulfilling semantic  
> debate.
> I apparently am drawn to these.


Yeah, I would counter in some way that music is inseparable from the  
culture which produces it; the most common argument is to de- 
legitimize the language: "rap isn't music;" the second most common is  
to dismiss the language as corrupt: causes people to commit crimes, do  
drugs, have sex etc. As you already know, this is a verbatim  
repetition of what was said about ragtime, early jazz, swing, bebop,  
free jazz, blues, funk, etc. . . the dismissal of the music is a  
cultural dismissal,  therefor to be scared of rap is to be scared of  
"those kind of black folks." (As opposed to the ones that do the nice,  
sanitized version of their own historically distant music.)

I'd also counter that "musical reasons" means one of two things:  
Either people are indoctrinated into a particular set of interlinked  
musical/cultural specifics so that  statements outside of it are  
incomprehensible, and therefore generally viewed as either barbaric or  
destructive (musical newspeak. . . ); or the surface presentation of  
the music refers to a particular cultural/tribal mythology, the  
challenging of which is threatening both personally and as part of  
one's tribal identity.

I would conclude by saying that there is probably no such thing as  
"musical reasons" outside of tribal identity; perhaps all "musical  
sounds" are framed by the listener's perception of  their cultural  
source .

mg

Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart





From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Thu Jun 19 13:42:52 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:42:52 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <461168.59826.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <461168.59826.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6D14E35D-9336-45A0-B8ED-5E746096F3D9@balancepointacoustics.com>

Come on Lance. Maybe if you are talking about global variants like  
German hip hop, etc. but the subject matter of post break dancing rap  
is mostly street lifestyle.
On Jun 19, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Praemedia wrote:

>
>> -- to which I'd argue, that they're not scared of
>> it for musical reasons,
>> but the fact that it is made by "poor blacks that do
>> crimes" - and lyrically
>> is about said lifestyle.
>
>
> very little of it is, though that side tends to be the most  
> popular. is that any "scarier" than biting heads off bats? or etc.,  
> etc., etc.
>
> you're right, it isn't really about the music, but please be  
> careful how you generalize.
>
> lance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 13:50:58 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:50:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <6D14E35D-9336-45A0-B8ED-5E746096F3D9@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <622598.63374.qm@web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

nope. can't let that one go. i grew up in those neighborhoods were rap began. i'll agree a lot of its roots are "street lifestyle" but "street lifestyle" does NOT equal "poor blacks that do crime." the part of rap that this represented was always a variant of the whole. in fact, gansta rap (one I'd be more comfortable calling music about poor blacks who commit crimes) didn't happen until about a decade after rap began and has always remained just a piece of a much larger whole.


--- On Thu, 6/19/08, Damon Smith <damon at balancepointacoustics.com> wrote:

> From: Damon Smith <damon at balancepointacoustics.com>
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
> To: "Bay Area New Music Discussion Group" <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 1:42 PM
> Come on Lance. Maybe if you are talking about global
> variants like  
> German hip hop, etc. but the subject matter of post break
> dancing rap  
> is mostly street lifestyle.
> On Jun 19, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Praemedia wrote:
> 
> >
> >> -- to which I'd argue, that they're not
> scared of
> >> it for musical reasons,
> >> but the fact that it is made by "poor blacks
> that do
> >> crimes" - and lyrically
> >> is about said lifestyle.
> >
> >
> > very little of it is, though that side tends to be the
> most  
> > popular. is that any "scarier" than biting
> heads off bats? or etc.,  
> > etc., etc.
> >
> > you're right, it isn't really about the music,
> but please be  
> > careful how you generalize.
> >
> > lance
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> > NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> > http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
> 
> Damon Smith
> 
> http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
> http://myspace.com/smithdamon
> New solo project:
> http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


      

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 19 13:51:05 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:51:05 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  the war on jazz
Message-ID: <C48014C9.255BF%21grand@21grand.org>

Lance wrote:

> -- to which I'd argue, that they're not scared of
> it for musical reasons,
> but the fact that it is made by "poor blacks that do
> crimes" - and lyrically
> is about said lifestyle.


very little of it is, though that side tends to be the most popular. is that
any "scarier" than biting heads off bats? or etc., etc., etc.

you're right, it isn't really about the music, but please be careful how you
generalize.

-- Uh, I'm merely reiterating the generalization that the people who find
rap "scary" tend to make.

To MG:
Good points. I won't argue.

sl



From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Thu Jun 19 13:55:37 2008
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:55:37 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <929B156C-384D-414D-BFC7-B115892EB12E@philipgelb.com>
References: <974528.3352.qm@web63710.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<8EEEB9BA-D2A3-44ED-997D-C2DF721DBCD0@matthewgoodheart.com>
	<929B156C-384D-414D-BFC7-B115892EB12E@philipgelb.com>
Message-ID: <B172BD4D-D707-4F07-BA10-498484FA3845@matthewgoodheart.com>


On Jun 19, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Philip Gelb wrote:

> you left out the "republicanization" of jazz in the US during the
> reagan era

That's what I meant by:

>>  santa-clausification all of that historical music into surface
>> sentimentality and exoticism as a tool to mollify the affect of  
>> social
>> liberalism in the monied classes.


I just forgot to mention it also was useful for advertising expensive  
Swiss watches.



Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart





From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 19 13:59:14 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:59:14 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  the war on jazz
Message-ID: <C48016B2.255C1%21grand@21grand.org>

Rap music would be good for this too ... It already is known for a fondness
for product placement.

sl

Matt G:
I just forgot to mention it also was useful for advertising expensive
Swiss watches.



From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 14:01:27 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:01:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <C48014C9.255BF%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <735665.65300.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> -- Uh, I'm merely reiterating the generalization that
> the people who find
> rap "scary" tend to make.

sorry.

difficult to get intentions in an e-mail unless they are all spelled out.


      

From 21grand at 21grand.org  Thu Jun 19 14:03:47 2008
From: 21grand at 21grand.org (Sarah - 21 Grand)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:03:47 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic]  the war on jazz
Message-ID: <C48017C3.255C4%21grand@21grand.org>

Clearly the overuse of quotation marks, and the loosening of rules
pertaining to them are to blame.

sl

Lance wrote:
sorry.

difficult to get intentions in an e-mail unless they are all spelled out.



From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 14:06:47 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on quotation marks
In-Reply-To: <C48017C3.255C4%21grand@21grand.org>
Message-ID: <651202.71013.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> Clearly the overuse of quotation marks, and the loosening of
> rules
> pertaining to them are to blame.

it certainly doesn't help.

though e-mail is a strange form of dialogue/monologue already, which becomes even more confused in group settings. nothing quite like it. currently, there are no rules.

lance

ps - i almost pur quotation marks around rules at the end. you owe me one smack on the knuckles with a ruler next time I see you.


      

From mattdavignon at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 14:12:08 2008
From: mattdavignon at gmail.com (Matt Davignon)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:12:08 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <E3F87499-3427-47E2-AD03-25152CF36E04@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <C47FF8DC.255A8%21grand@21grand.org>
	<E3F87499-3427-47E2-AD03-25152CF36E04@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <c70e517b0806191412r65a263di516e0ff319dbea5b@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not quite understanding these arguments, because there are 3
different things that you could be referring to as "radical aspects":
--That the music was very different from the widely accepted music at the time
--That folks originally thought that jazz was a morally corrupting influence
--the political viewpoints of the people making the music

On #1, the original "weirdness" of jazz has eventually become
ingrained with the music that followed. So, personally I don't think
much jazz is very radical now, any more than I think Black Sabbath is
radical by today's standards. Other than the experimental weird stuff
of course, but experimental weird stuff is generally suppressed in all
music genres.

On #2, let's face it, as time passes the people who were once
"immoral" 20 somethings eventually become the 60 somethings who
complain that the current music is lacking in moral values. I'm seen
plenty of jazz musicians complain about the cultural lackings of rap
music. So talking about how radical this aspect of jazz was, like 80
years ago, doesn't strike much more in me than discussions about how
Elvis swinging his hips on national television was risque.

On #3, If we're talking about political music - shit - I'd suppress it.

Matt

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Matthew Goodheart
<matthew at matthewgoodheart.com> wrote:
> I agree; I don't think it's possible any more in a surface-listening,
> revolution-as-the-central-mythology culture.  On the other hand, I
> think the suppression of radical aspects of "jazz" is deliberate, just
> like suppression of labor history is; there's something about that is
> actually threatening, either to one's pocketbook or the view of one's
> place in the world.
>
> On the other other hand, lots of folks seem scared of rap.
>
>

From jazzscribe at aol.com  Thu Jun 19 14:15:41 2008
From: jazzscribe at aol.com (jazzscribe at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:15:41 -0400
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <1D16F458-F4AB-4ADB-8DA4-A67ED6AD26CC@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <1D16F458-F4AB-4ADB-8DA4-A67ED6AD26CC@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <8CAA068C2E1FB4D-164C-2234@webmail-nb07.sysops.aol.com>

 the dismissal of the music is a
cultural dismissal,  therefor to be scared of rap is to be scared of
"those kind of black folks." (As opposed to the ones that do the nice,
sanitized version of their own historically distant music.)

setting aside whatever reasons people might have for fearing, 
dismissing, or disliking hip hop, do you really want to put yourself in 
the position of arguing that the music of RZA, 50 Cent or Ol' Dirty 
Bastard is a more authentic expression of African-American culture than 
James Carter, James Moody, or James Newton (just for a few examples). 
Many would argue that a large percentage of the most popular figures in 
hip hop are creating music that's more safe and sanitized than any hard 
bop combo, as they're feeding powerful stereotypes rather than 
subverting them...

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 1:40 pm
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz

O_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic



From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 14:18:38 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:18:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806191412r65a263di516e0ff319dbea5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <911124.51978.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> I'm not quite understanding these arguments, because
> there are 3
> different things that you could be referring to as
> "radical aspects":
> --That the music was very different from the widely
> accepted music at the time
> --That folks originally thought that jazz was a morally
> corrupting influence
> --the political viewpoints of the people making the music

One thing to keep in mind is that many people equate all of these things as one thing. 

To wit: Anything weird (non-mainstream) must be morally corrupting and made by a bunch of degenerate .................. (insert opposition party or other red herring here - such as "commies")

Also, people continue to make that and similar mistakes, especially in groups. 

lance


      

From pgsaxo at pacbell.net  Thu Jun 19 14:54:52 2008
From: pgsaxo at pacbell.net (Phillip Greenlief)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <8CAA068C2E1FB4D-164C-2234@webmail-nb07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <373351.83532.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

thanks for your post, andy.
   
  on the whole, i find discussions about jazz on this list rather offensive, given that most of you who are so apt to "discuss" it, have spent very little time (in the big picture) pursuing the music as a viable artform. 
   
  there are still people out there that are "scaring" people with this music (in various ways, both socially and artistically). the first person that comes to mind is joe di orio, who was fired about two years ago from the guitar institute of technology for being "too radical". i find it very difficult to find a gig for the lost trio, which is a rather conservative group, i should think. nonetheless, there are quite a few venues around town that won't book us because we're too left of center.
   
  i suppose this means that the "santa claus-i-fication" of jazz has taken hold so well that anyone marching to the beat of a different drummer stands out like a sore thumb. but that would seem to argue in favor of the idea that jazz can still shake people up, or, at the least, confuse them.
   
  pg
   
  

jazzscribe at aol.com wrote:
  the dismissal of the music is a
cultural dismissal, therefor to be scared of rap is to be scared of
"those kind of black folks." (As opposed to the ones that do the nice,
sanitized version of their own historically distant music.)

setting aside whatever reasons people might have for fearing, 
dismissing, or disliking hip hop, do you really want to put yourself in 
the position of arguing that the music of RZA, 50 Cent or Ol' Dirty 
Bastard is a more authentic expression of African-American culture than 
James Carter, James Moody, or James Newton (just for a few examples). 
Many would argue that a large percentage of the most popular figures in 
hip hop are creating music that's more safe and sanitized than any hard 
bop combo, as they're feeding powerful stereotypes rather than 
subverting them...

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Goodheart 
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group 
Sent: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 1:40 pm
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz

O_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


From liberatednsf at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 15:30:47 2008
From: liberatednsf at yahoo.com (andrew wilshusen)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
Message-ID: <802104.2990.qm@web30504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

1) Forms of jazz which the masses would classify as weird?or subversive have never been popular outside of musician circles.
2)?The masses don't listen to pop contemporary jazz because it freakin' sucks to high heaven.
andrew
?Ev oida oti oudev oida


http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
http://oudevoida.blogspot.com


----- Original Message ----
From: Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net>
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:54:52 PM
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz

thanks for your post, andy.
? 
? on the whole, i find discussions about jazz on this list rather offensive, given that most of you who are so apt to "discuss" it, have spent very little time (in the big picture) pursuing the music as a viable artform. 
? 
? there are still people out there that are "scaring" people with this music (in various ways, both socially and artistically). the first person that comes to mind is joe di orio, who was fired about two years ago from the guitar institute of technology for being "too radical". i find it very difficult to find a gig for the lost trio, which is a rather conservative group, i should think. nonetheless, there are quite a few venues around town that won't book us because we're too left of center.
? 
? i suppose this means that the "santa claus-i-fication" of jazz has taken hold so well that anyone marching to the beat of a different drummer stands out like a sore thumb. but that would seem to argue in favor of the idea that jazz can still shake people up, or, at the least, confuse them.
? 
? pg
? 
? 

jazzscribe at aol.com wrote:
? the dismissal of the music is a
cultural dismissal, therefor to be scared of rap is to be scared of
"those kind of black folks." (As opposed to the ones that do the nice,
sanitized version of their own historically distant music.)

setting aside whatever reasons people might have for fearing, 
dismissing, or disliking hip hop, do you really want to put yourself in 
the position of arguing that the music of RZA, 50 Cent or Ol' Dirty 
Bastard is a more authentic expression of African-American culture than 
James Carter, James Moody, or James Newton (just for a few examples). 
Many would argue that a large percentage of the most popular figures in 
hip hop are creating music that's more safe and sanitized than any hard 
bop combo, as they're feeding powerful stereotypes rather than 
subverting them...

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Goodheart 
To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group 
Sent: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 1:40 pm
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz

O_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic


_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic

_______________________________________________
Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
NewMusic at music.mills.edu
http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic



      

From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Thu Jun 19 15:35:52 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:35:52 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <373351.83532.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <373351.83532.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <75601C97-C70B-4EF2-B285-CBD03FAFB4C6@balancepointacoustics.com>

On Jun 19, 2008, at 2:54 PM, Phillip Greenlief wrote:

> on the whole, i find discussions about jazz on this list rather  
> offensive, given that most of you who are so apt to "discuss" it,  
> have spent very little time (in the big picture) pursuing the music  
> as a viable artform.

- I agree, I think the most fear I have seen jazz create is with free  
improvisors. Getting a basic handle on jazz fundamentals makes it  
easier to play with more musicians.  I still work on it all the time.
I decided to put time into it early on because most of the master  
improvisors in America come from jazz.
Learning about the tension and release in a tune as simple as "Autumn  
Leaves" can teach you a lot about basic harmony.  I am the first to  
say there some really distasteful things about jazz, corny tunes,  
conservative attitudes etc.
You can still learn a lot from a tradition that strong.

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From damon at balancepointacoustics.com  Thu Jun 19 15:39:59 2008
From: damon at balancepointacoustics.com (Damon Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:39:59 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] RIP Michel Waisvisz
Message-ID: <4BC4E678-53C6-4592-9A7F-5DD921E30D70@balancepointacoustics.com>

Bummer, he was on a lot or great, '70s improv lps:

http://www.steim.org/michel/

Damon Smith

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
http://myspace.com/smithdamon
New solo project:
http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo





From aliciabyer at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 15:57:13 2008
From: aliciabyer at gmail.com (Alicia Byer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:57:13 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <8CAA068C2E1FB4D-164C-2234@webmail-nb07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1D16F458-F4AB-4ADB-8DA4-A67ED6AD26CC@matthewgoodheart.com>
	<8CAA068C2E1FB4D-164C-2234@webmail-nb07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <485AE449.9090007@gmail.com>

Yeah, radio rap is NOT subverting any paradigms here... "Watch me 
roll... Let's get McDonald's"

simplifying the genres so much seems like a mistake to me.

"black" radio music has basically the same agenda as "white" radio 
music, but pitched to a different audience: MAKE MONEY.. it scares white 
middle-class people because it makes $ from the santa-claus fantasies of 
a different set of people, and they don't understand those fantasies. 
It's like "Race records" from the turn of the century, when they would 
make 'black records' not because the record producers wanted to promote 
black culture, but because there was a market for those records.

I'm just saying that there's crappy santa-claus music in just about 
every genre, and probably the same number of people doing genuinely 
creative things in each genre.

Don't buy into the hype of "jazz is elitist", "hiphop is street", 
"classical is stuffy". That's just what they want you to think. 
Obviously every idiom is going to have a huge range of people doing 
different things.

alicia

jazzscribe at aol.com wrote:
>  the dismissal of the music is a
> cultural dismissal,  therefor to be scared of rap is to be scared of
> "those kind of black folks." (As opposed to the ones that do the nice,
> sanitized version of their own historically distant music.)
>
> setting aside whatever reasons people might have for fearing, 
> dismissing, or disliking hip hop, do you really want to put yourself in 
> the position of arguing that the music of RZA, 50 Cent or Ol' Dirty 
> Bastard is a more authentic expression of African-American culture than 
> James Carter, James Moody, or James Newton (just for a few examples). 
> Many would argue that a large percentage of the most popular figures in 
> hip hop are creating music that's more safe and sanitized than any hard 
> bop combo, as they're feeding powerful stereotypes rather than 
> subverting them...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com>
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
> Sent: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 1:40 pm
> Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
>
> O_______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>
>   


From wobbly at detritus.net  Thu Jun 19 15:58:50 2008
From: wobbly at detritus.net (wobbly at detritus.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:58:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] RIP Michel Waisvisz
In-Reply-To: <4BC4E678-53C6-4592-9A7F-5DD921E30D70@balancepointacoustics.com>
References: <4BC4E678-53C6-4592-9A7F-5DD921E30D70@balancepointacoustics.com>
Message-ID: <10013.198.37.34.2.1213916330.squirrel@webmail.detritus.net>

RIP, circuit bending gestural controller pioneering dude

bits of his first solo album were reissued on that compilation on Mouse on
Mars' Sonig label two years back, but you can't beat that first rude
record all the way through

http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/01/michel-waisvisz.html

-jl





> Bummer, he was on a lot or great, '70s improv lps:
>
> http://www.steim.org/michel/
>
> Damon Smith
>
> http://www.balancepointacoustics.com
> http://myspace.com/smithdamon
> New solo project:
> http://www.myspace.com/damonsmithsolo
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> NewMusic at music.mills.edu
> http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic
>



From praemedia at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 15:59:11 2008
From: praemedia at yahoo.com (Praemedia)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on my useless post
In-Reply-To: <485AE449.9090007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <381296.30936.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> alicia

hurray@! thank you! agree 98.3%

lance


      

From jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 16:02:37 2008
From: jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com (Jacob Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Fwd: scared vs. dismissive
Message-ID: <777377.90213.qm@web58011.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

oops...wrong list
--- Jacob Lindsay <jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:21:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jacob Lindsay <jacobmakesnoise at yahoo.com>
> Subject: scared vs. dismissive
> To: newmusevents <newmusicevents at music.mills.edu>
> 
> I don't think a lot of folks are scared of radical
> music.  They are just dismissive of it.
> 
> here's a question: does music have to scare people
> to
> be radical?  if music is scary does that make it
> radical?
> 
> there is certainly music that is both radical and
> scary (ayler's bells and brotzmann's machine gun
> come
> to mind).  imagine walking into a performance of
> either of those in the late sixties and not really
> knowing what to expect.  you might be scared.  you
> might like being scared.
> 
> Jacob Lindsay
>
http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44
> 
> 
>       
> 


Jacob Lindsay
http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistdetail.asp?artist_id=44


      

From wobbly at detritus.net  Thu Jun 19 16:34:15 2008
From: wobbly at detritus.net (wobbly at detritus.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] RIP Michel Waisvisz
In-Reply-To: <10013.198.37.34.2.1213916330.squirrel@webmail.detritus.net>
References: <4BC4E678-53C6-4592-9A7F-5DD921E30D70@balancepointacoustics.com>
	<10013.198.37.34.2.1213916330.squirrel@webmail.detritus.net>
Message-ID: <55361.198.37.34.2.1213918455.squirrel@webmail.detritus.net>

> RIP, circuit bending gestural controller pioneering dude

and amending my own post before someone else does, as a poster on that
WFMU thread I just posted noted -- 'he DOES NOT BEND CIRCUITS. He designs
them from the ground up.' - Buzz-R

in terms of specialized shop terms hitting the public audience, 'circuit
bending' as a term is now often used to describe the method to make any
music that contains lo-fi squalking analog sounds, not just to consumer
electronics that have been opened & modified by end users...  pretty much
in the same way that 'MIDI sounds' are used to describe any
hyper-quantized chimey music made with 80's/90's digital preset sounds

guilty






From wobbly at detritus.net  Thu Jun 19 16:34:20 2008
From: wobbly at detritus.net (wobbly at detritus.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:34:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] RIP Michel Waisvisz
Message-ID: <55428.198.37.34.2.1213918460.squirrel@webmail.detritus.net>

> RIP, circuit bending gestural controller pioneering dude

and amending my own post before someone else does, as a poster on that
WFMU thread I just posted noted -- 'he DOES NOT BEND CIRCUITS. He designs
them from the ground up.' - Buzz-R

in terms of specialized shop terms hitting the public audience, 'circuit
bending' as a term is now often used to describe the method to make any
music that contains lo-fi squalking analog sounds, not just to consumer
electronics that have been opened & modified by end users...  pretty much
in the same way that 'MIDI sounds' are used to describe any
hyper-quantized chimey music made with 80's/90's digital preset sounds

guilty






From moestaiano1 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 17:01:43 2008
From: moestaiano1 at yahoo.com (Moe! Staiano)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:01:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NewMusic] Blank 3" CD-R spindle
Message-ID: <593893.13374.qm@web59007.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hey! Would anyone be interested in a spindle of blank new 3" CD-R's? I have about 50 of them along with the plastic sleeves? Would be ideal if someone wanted to put out a limited release. I was asking $5 for the lot. Email me off the list if interested. Thanks.

-M!



      

From matthew at matthewgoodheart.com  Thu Jun 19 19:15:08 2008
From: matthew at matthewgoodheart.com (Matthew Goodheart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:15:08 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <c70e517b0806191412r65a263di516e0ff319dbea5b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C47FF8DC.255A8%21grand@21grand.org>
	<E3F87499-3427-47E2-AD03-25152CF36E04@matthewgoodheart.com>
	<c70e517b0806191412r65a263di516e0ff319dbea5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <632617A9-9868-407D-B684-24ACEC9429F0@matthewgoodheart.com>


On Jun 19, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Matt Davignon wrote:

> I'm not quite understanding these arguments, because there are 3
> different things that you could be referring to as "radical aspects":
> --That the music was very different from the widely accepted music  
> at the time
> --That folks originally thought that jazz was a morally corrupting  
> influence
> --the political viewpoints of the people making the music

Yes - the confluence or interconnection of all these things. Keep in  
mind I'm mostly talking about perception, and these things varied  
tremendously between the different historical jazz movements. For  
example, I'm not sure if Louis Armstrong was as much into radical  
politics, but Archie Shepp was. This is a complicated conversation,  
and there have been volumes written about it.

>  So, personally I don't think much jazz is very radical now

Well, depends on what we mean by radical; and whether radical implies  
revolutionary, in the sense of overturning social/political norms. For  
that matter, Peter Gabriel's "Biko" could be considered radical since  
it was the rallying song for the American anti-apartheid movement.

> do you really want to put yourself in the position of arguing that  
> the music of RZA, 50 Cent or Ol' Dirty
> Bastard is a more authentic expression of African-American es).


Who said anything about authenticity?

PG:
>  on the whole, i find discussions about jazz on this list rather  
> offensive, given that most of you who are so apt to "discuss" it,  
> have spent very little time (in the big picture) pursuing the music  
> as a viable artform.


I'm a little cranky today, and I can't speak for others, but I take  
objection to this as far as I go. I drank the cool-aid for a long  
time, a good 15 professional years labeling myself as a "jazz pianist"  
until it didn't make sense to me anymore, and I still make extra money  
playing "jazz" and "gospel."  (ironically, Zen Widow could only get  
booked in jazz clubs and festivals this time around, since the  
"improvised music" venues thought we were too "jazz.")   My opinions  
about it come from working inside the form, from trying to follow the  
implications of the harmony and rhythm as they led to their own  
dissolutions, understanding the rhythmic roots in West African music  
and how that played out in the historically changing cultural  
environment, what held at what period, what was reinvestigated, etc.  
The more I did that, the more I discovered that most jazz pedagogy was  
erroneous, especially in understanding the roots and function of the  
harmony they were teaching. The concept of "style" itself fell apart  
for me: the rules for determining what was stylistic and what wasn't  
were fraudulent, in many ways. One could easily and effectively argue,  
as both Parker and Armstrong did, that bebop isn't jazz. Either it all  
is, or it all isn't, which therefore means the form has ceased to  
exist as a living tribal form, but rather has evolved into something  
else. Music is tribal, and tribes change over time.  Style is a  
psychological category we impose upon a chaotic cultural phenominon.

  For me it is about history; particular groups of people and  
particular artists at particular times. I used to be fond of saying  
"there is no jazz." And, in agreement with Damon, this history is  
extremely important to study, since these evolving languages in-form  
how we conceive of the world. (How the early 1900's piano sheet music  
market formalized the structure of the blues, for example.) I would  
add that one has to dig deep to get a grasp on the inner-life;  
otherwise we are merely imitating surface features; an endless study,  
struggle, and submission.

In terms of a meta-language "tradition;"  (what Radano called a  
"series of fusions and oppositions" in his book about Braxton) I would  
merely say that perhaps what unifies the music is a particular  
approach to 1) rhythm, best described by Mingus as a "sphere" with the  
central pulse is recognized but seldom played, the interest being in  
pushing and pulling against that sense of pulse; 2) tonality and  
harmony, rooted in the melding of 7th partial African harmony with 5- 
limit European, and a particular focus on modal borrowing, which  
ultimately led in some forms to the replacement of function with  
coloristic harmony and ultimately timbral aggregation; the inevitable  
product of an Equal-Temperament.

There are other things, particularly about physicality and  
individualism, but those things (for me at least) are lost in 90% of  
what I hear as "jazz" these days, since now  "jazz" is largely about  
being "jazz."

Of couse, that doesn't mean I don't think the Lost Trio isn't a cool  
group.

mg

Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart





From bthrew at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 20:16:16 2008
From: bthrew at gmail.com (Barry Threw)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:16:16 -0700
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <632617A9-9868-407D-B684-24ACEC9429F0@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <C47FF8DC.255A8%21grand@21grand.org>
	<E3F87499-3427-47E2-AD03-25152CF36E04@matthewgoodheart.com>
	<c70e517b0806191412r65a263di516e0ff319dbea5b@mail.gmail.com>
	<632617A9-9868-407D-B684-24ACEC9429F0@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <FA468A4A-0E58-4570-AF7D-C48D470A7C83@gmail.com>

It's hardly surprising that Jazz has largely lost its ability to  
motivate or speak to our culture, its 100 years old. It gets canned  
into meaningless form because its meaningless to most people.

bt

From jon_raskin at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 19 20:33:32 2008
From: jon_raskin at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?Sm9uIFJhc2tpbg==?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:33:32 +0000
Subject: [NewMusic] the war on jazz
In-Reply-To: <632617A9-9868-407D-B684-24ACEC9429F0@matthewgoodheart.com>
References: <C47FF8DC.255A8%21grand@21grand.org><E3F87499-3427-47E2-AD03-25152CF36E04@matthewgoodheart.com><c70e517b0806191412r65a263di516e0ff319dbea5b@mail.gmail.com><632617A9-9868-407D-B684-24ACEC9429F0@matthewgoodheart.com>
Message-ID: <1285254545-1213932794-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-994004625-@bxe013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

David Cassidy's work on how the -Irish invented jazz is an interesting look at "jazz" .

http://www.counterpunch.org/cassidy07012006.html

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Goodheart <matthew at matthewgoodheart.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:15:08 
To:Bay Area New Music Discussion Group <newmusic at music.mills.edu>
Subject: Re: [NewMusic] the war on jazz



On Jun 19, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Matt Davignon wrote:

> I'm not quite understanding these arguments, because there are 3
> different things that you could be referring to as "radical aspects":
> --That the music was very different from the widely accepted music  
> at the time
> --That folks originally thought that jazz was a morally corrupting  
> influence
> --the political viewpoints of the people making the music

Yes - the confluence or interconnection of all these things. Keep in  
mind I'm mostly talking about perception, and these things varied  
tremendously between the different historical jazz movements. For  
example, I'm not sure if Louis Armstrong was as much into radical  
politics, but Archie Shepp was. This is a complicated conversation,  
and there have been volumes written about it.

>  So, personally I don't think much jazz is very radical now

Well, depends on what we mean by radical; and whether radical implies  
revolutionary, in the sense of overturning social/political norms. For  
that matter, Peter Gabriel's "Biko" could be considered radical since  
it was the rallying song for the American anti-apartheid movement.

> do you really want to put yourself in the position of arguing that  
> the music of RZA, 50 Cent or Ol' Dirty
> Bastard is a more authentic expression of African-American es).


Who said anything about authenticity?

PG:
>  on the whole, i find discussions about jazz on this list rather  
> offensive, given that most of you who are so apt to "discuss" it,  
> have spent very little time (in the big picture) pursuing the music  
> as a viable artform.


I'm a little cranky today, and I can't speak for others, but I take  
objection to this as far as I go. I drank the cool-aid for a long  
time, a good 15 professional years labeling myself as a "jazz pianist"  
until it didn't make sense to me anymore, and I still make extra money  
playing "jazz" and "gospel."  (ironically, Zen Widow could only get  
booked in jazz clubs and festivals this time around, since the  
"improvised music" venues thought we were too "jazz.")   My opinions  
about it come from working inside the form, from trying to follow the  
implications of the harmony and rhythm as they led to their own  
dissolutions, understanding the rhythmic roots in West African music  
and how that played out in the historically changing cultural  
environment, what held at what period, what was reinvestigated, etc.  
The more I did that, the more I discovered that most jazz pedagogy was  
erroneous, especially in understanding the roots and function of the  
harmony they were teaching. The concept of "style" itself fell apart  
for me: the rules for determining what was stylistic and what wasn't  
were fraudulent, in many ways. One could easily and effectively argue,  
as both Parker and Armstrong did, that bebop isn't jazz. Either it all  
is, or it all isn't, which therefore means the form has ceased to  
exist as a living tribal form, but rather has evolved into something  
else. Music is tribal, and tribes change over time.  Style is a  
psychological category we impose upon a chaotic cultural phenominon.

  For me it is about history; particular groups of people and  
particular artists at particular times. I used to be fond of saying  
"there is no jazz." And, in agreement with Damon, this history is  
extremely important to study, since these evolving languages in-form  
how we conceive of the world. (How the early 1900's piano sheet music  
market formalized the structure of the blues, for example.) I would  
add that one has to dig deep to get a grasp on the inner-life;  
otherwise we are merely imitating surface features; an endless study,  
struggle, and submission.

In terms of a meta-language "tradition;"  (what Radano called a  
"series of fusions and oppositions" in his book about Braxton) I would  
merely say that perhaps what unifies the music is a particular  
approach to 1) rhythm, best described by Mingus as a "sphere" with the  
central pulse is recognized but seldom played, the interest being in  
pushing and pulling against that sense of pulse; 2) tonality and  
harmony, rooted in the melding of 7th partial African harmony with 5- 
limit European, and a particular focus on modal borrowing, which  
ultimately led in some forms to the replacement of function with  
coloristic harmony and ultimately t