[NewMusic] no one cares

Fri May 30 18:00:20 PDT 2008

Yeah, late post on my own thread. . . moving at Feldman speed in an  
Art Tatum world. . .

Lots of interesting thoughts from everyone, though I guess what  
interested me most in the Gehry quote (whose name I misspelled. . .)  
was the dependence of quality on the acceptance in the "market  
place;"  how much of an internalized concept that is. It wasn't  
explored in the film, but I wonder how much of that internalized  
concept of marketplace was in fact an important thrust of Gehry's  
work; that his work in some way is a physicalization of radical  
individualism that forms the base of contemporary spectacular discourse.

It reminded me of a panel discussion I listened to years ago (I  
believe hosted by Rep. John Conyers) called something like "Where do  
we go after Coltrane" or "where is the next Coltrane coming from," and  
it was clear the definition of "genius" for the panel was largely  
based on the influence the artist had on future generations: that is,  
Coltrane is a genius because a lot players began imitating him, his  
music is taught and studied in schools, and he therefore had a  
significant contribution to make to music.  For the folks on the  
panel, who included some musicians I believe, "genius" is a social  
construct based on influence, not on insight or aesthetic concerns.   
Influence can prioritizes types of expression that into 1) pedagogical  
categories, 2) intellectual/academic categories,  and perhaps most  
importantly, 3) marketability - particularly to economically  
advantaged demographics.  In fact, it would be interesting to trace  
the "acceptance" of periods of Coltrane's music as popular genres  
incorporated more dissonant harmonies: Nobody today thinks "Giant  
Steps" is an aesthetically challenging piece, though in it's time it  
was considered radical; the theme from South Park, for example, is  
even more harmonically disjunct. Coltrane's later work was not  
considered by the panel - therefore, the influential aspects were once  
again prioritized, rather than the actual exploration by the artist.

I guess my point here is that there is an honesty in Gehry's comment,  
in that the concept of "marketplace" is a deeply internalized one; it  
is, in fact, the measure of culture, and therefore our relationship to  
culture. Matt's well thought post, I think, indicates this when he says:

> Each subset of the music business is a marketplace, even if it's a  
> few people in Oakland who go to improv shows . .  Rejection in the  
> marketplace would be a symptom of either not expressing those ideas  
> clearly, or of the ideas not being very good in the first place.

Of course, Andrew says "Fuck the marketplace," but then perhaps this  
becomes a semantic issue? When are we discussing subculture and when  
are we discussing "marketplace"? But the thread through all of this,  
from Gehry to Conyers to Wilshusen, is the focus on the "self" of the  
artist: as Andrew says;

> you want to sound like "yourself"

I've been wondering (again) about this, as it seems the mantra for not  
only our scene, but in a larger sense, the for "marketplace/culture"  
of our times - what political candidate has not said, for that matter,  
that they were "maverick" and "outsider?" I guess what I'm exploring  
here, is actually how both concepts are dependent on the other. Isn't  
even the idea of art being an individualistic expression something  
that arose contemporaneous with modern capitalism? Therefore, isn't it  
possible the notion of artistic individualism is an outgrowth of an  
internalized concept of "marketplace?"  How, then, does this focus on  
individualism shape the aesthetic possibilities?

Fuck, I don't know if any of this is right, or makes any sense. It  
just keeps peaking my interest . .

On May 29, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Phillip Greenlief wrote:

> Sounds good to me Andrew...work on what doesn't work. When it starts  
> to work, go on to something else.
>
>  And: Fuck the marketplace...that's good advice. I've been trying to  
> make a mess of the marketplace ever since I started playing music.
>
>  I had a great time listening to you when I was in Portland a few  
> months ago!
>
>  <3
>  PG
>
> andrew wilshusen <liberatednsf at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  Personally, I find exploring what I do worst much more satisfying  
> than what I do best.  I enjoy the process of learning and get really  
> irritable when I have to show off what I've learned like a goddamn  
> trained monkey.
> i had a lesson with Gino in which he noted how fluid my playing  
> was.  I said, "thanks," ruminating on the years I had spent trying  
> to be fluid with my playing (even used to have "Be water, my  
> friend." (Bruce Lee quote) on the wall next to my drumset for  
> years.) Gino responded, "Why don't you try playing tense."  Truly  
> brilliant advice.
> I play tabla more than drumset these days.  Why? because I totally  
> suck at tabla.  I wouldn't play tabla in public though, as I have  
> too much respect for the instrument.
> Fuck the marketplace; I'd never trust its opinion on anything.
> Publically, I find few if any who want to hear either what I'm good  
> at or what I'm bad at, but my philosophy is if you want to sound  
> like "yourself," the first thing you have to do is forget and ignore  
> everybody's opinions regarding your sound.
> BTW I think the common misconception that sounding like yourself  
> means it's not commercial is total bullcrap.  Loads of people ARE  
> commercial.
> Andrew
> Ev oida oti oudev oida
>
>
> http://www.andrewwilshusen.com
> http://oudevoida.blogspot.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Matthew Goodheart
> To: Bay Area New Music Discussion Group
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 1:37:22 PM
> Subject: [NewMusic] Old discussions no one cares about
>
> Been watching Pollack's film on Frank Ghery, and this quote from him
> reminded me of an old thread:
>
> "I'm going to do what I do the best, and if it's no good, the market
> place will deny it."
>
> ah, regression, dead horse and all that. . . .
>
> mg
>
> Matthew Goodheart
> composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
> matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
> http://matthewgoodheart.com
> http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart
>
>
>
>
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Matthew Goodheart
composer ~ improviser ~ pianist
matthew at matthewgoodheart.com
http://matthewgoodheart.com
http://myspace.com/matthewgoodheart